Wake Up Eager Workforce 
Episode 122 Transcript

Suzie Price: Today I'm talking with clinical psychologist, psychoanalyst and psychotherapist Dr. Nicholas Samstag. You want to tune in today if you want to create a healthier, high-trust culture in your workplace, because we're going to talk about psychological fluency and how you can use this type of fluency, this understanding of emotions, to transform conflict into growth and to deepen your connection with your teams. It will help you as a leader to understand some of these concepts that we talk about. We're going to talk about essential insights into managing the challenges of narcissism. We're going to talk about understanding trauma's impact on behavior and tapping into the power of emotional awareness so that you can lead with clarity and compassion. So I don't know if we've had an episode exactly like this. I have had other therapists on, and I will link to those episodes. They tie to a little bit of what we talk about today, but it really is about understanding yourself and understanding others and the impact of emotion in the workplace. And so it's psychological fluency makes sense. And we're going to practice and grow some of that in this discussion. And I can't wait to share it with you. Michael. Hit it.

Intro/Outro: Welcome to the Wake Up Eager Workforce podcast, a show designed for leaders, trainers and consultants who are responsible for employee selection and professional development. Each episode is packed full with insider tips, best practices, expert interviews and inspiration. Please welcome the host who is helping leaders, trainers and consultants everywhere Suzie Price.

[00:01:46] Suzie Price: Hi, I am the producer of the Wake Up Eager Workforce podcast and the founder of Priceless Professional Development. I love making this podcast. I love having these discussions. I'm so thankful that you are joining us and that you tune in and appreciate all your input. And if you are wanting to subscribe to the Wake Up Eager Workforce podcast, you can find us at any of your podcast apps that you use. It's Wake Up Eager Workforce podcast, and what we cover here is everything related to helping you and the employees in your organization build a high commitment, low drama, wake up eager workforce. So while we're focusing on the workforce is made up of leaders and teams. So we talk about self-development as well as others development. Talk about leadership development, team development. We talk about the Trimetrix assessment, which is one of the biggest tools that we use. And so we are just happy to have you here. And thanks for tuning in. This is episode 122, and the title of today's episode is Mental Health Mastery for Wake Up Eager Leaders -insights on trauma, narcissism, and coping. The tracker for getting the show notes will be to go to our page. pricelessprofessional.com/mentalhealth, pricelessprofessional.com/mentalhealth. And it's always one word lowercase. So that's where you can get the show notes and links to a lot of the things we're going to talk about today. And to summarize a little bit about what we're talking about, I touched on it in the opening is we're going to talk about psychological fluency and how we need to develop that. And we have a lot of discussion about that. What that is, there's one thing that's always true that he talks about when you have conflict or tension, and it is eye opening to think of it.

[00:03:36] Suzie Price: And he says it's never not the case. So you really want to understand that because this thing is what results in proxy conversations. And you're going to learn what that is, what it is, what it means, and how to turn it into an opportunity. And at the very end, I'm going to share something I discussed with Doctor Samstag, some material that I met through another therapist who's also been on the podcast and has a book about this, how to have a different conversation when there's a proxy conversation going on. So I'll share links to that in the show notes again at pricelessprofessional.com/mentalhealth. We also talk about narcissism. I become interested in that recently based on some different dynamics that I've seen with some different people that I have met and had in my personal and professional life. So we're going to talk about that. I found that fascinating. And I've got a book that I have found and a podcast around that if that topic is of interest. And then lastly, the subjective nature of trauma, angst and anger. We're talking about the wisdom of knowing. Feelings never lie. So there's lots of wisdom in that. So lots to learn from Doctor Nicholas Samstag. He is a clinical psychologist, psychoanalyst and psychotherapist. He lives and works in New York City. He does work with people remotely, but in addition to individual therapy, he treats couples, consults, and offers supervision to doctoral psychology students, psychoanalytic candidates and psychiatry residents. Great discussion. Let's go to it now. All right, doctor Samstag, thank you for being here on the podcast. It's good to see you.

[00:05:08] Nicholas Samstag: Well, thank you so much for having me.

[00:05:10] Suzie Price: The only thing that would make it better is if I was sitting in your living room or you were sitting in mine, but we like the virtual thing too. I just want to jump in and talk a little bit about your viewpoint on integrating mental health support in organizations and in their culture. We've got a lot of high stress environments that people are in right now. What would you say about that and how people can do that?

[00:05:32] Nicholas Samstag: Yeah, I think whenever I have this kind of conversation, I think it's really important to delineate mental health. We know a lot about what we think is abnormal, but we don't really know what normal is. No one's ever really come out and told us what it means to be normal. And from a diagnostic standpoint, I think it's I think it's necessary to understand that there are people who have severe mental illness, people who can't function in society, people who are plagued by invasive thoughts, hallucinations, very seriously ill people. That's on one side of the ledger. And on the other side of the ledger, there's everybody else. There's all the rest of us. So if we're talking about mental health and business or mental health in any environment, it's really important to make that distinction, because the first category of folks need hospitalization or immediate urgent care or something, right? They're a danger to themselves, other people. They can't function. On the other side where the rest of us live, which is a wide band of experience. I think that's in a sense a much more difficult area because we are more I'll use the word normal, whatever that means. Then typically. And so how do we think about that? The first thing that occurs to me in institutions is that institutions necessarily replicate early family dynamics. It's never not the case. So whether it's a church or a military situation, or a school or a business. If you get more than two people or I would say two people, if you get two people or more together, sooner than later, they're going to start responding as they have their entire lives so far, which was primarily developed in the crucible of the family.

[00:07:10] Nicholas Samstag: So if you have someone who's the oldest of four, they're going to typically be much more assertive, much more leader oriented, much more entitled. If you have someone who's in the middle, someone who's at the bottom of the sibling ladder, those folks are going to respond in that way, and you get all of them together in an institution. And it's a great confluence of family dynamics. One of the things that I think that my field doesn't do a great job of often is understanding that. So approaches to the business world in this fashion that don't include family systems, I think are quite limited. We need to know where these folks came from. And again, I'm talking now about a pool of people who are like you and me. Let's say they're not jumping off the walls and they're not getting in fistfights and they're not, you know, shrieking at the moon. But they have their ups and they have their downs. So what's the best way of handling that? I think there's no best way. And I think there's no one size fits all. I think what you want to do is create an environment, which I can say a little bit more about. I think you want to create an environment that's more psychologically informed than not. And I think that's really tricky these days, because we're all so aggrieved about all kinds of things.

[00:08:17] Nicholas Samstag: I can't tell you how many people in all institutions actually, that I see where people are being sued left and right. People are being sued left and right, saying the wrong thing, not saying the right thing. So it's really delicate, but I would say that it can start on the we can start our journey with this at the hiring stage, when you hire people, instead of just asking them about their proficiency in the thing that they're supposedly going to do for you, you can ask them questions about their background. And again, you have to be real careful here. And the HR people will be shrieking, running from the room. But if you're going to be working with one another for hopefully a significant period of time, you should know more about one another than where you went to school and what your, I hate this term, skill set. What your skill set is, right? You want to know a bit about the person. What are you like when you're angry? Where were you in the birth order? What do you like to do for fun? When you get mad, what do you look like? I mean, there are all kinds of questions that I don't think would be offensive at all to most people. That would give them a sense that they're not just hiring you because of some kind of function that you have, but they're interested in you as a person. That's my long winded initial response to your question.

[00:09:27] Suzie Price: I like it. I like that you said we replicate our early family dynamic, and this is never not the case. Because it is so true whether anybody acknowledges it or not. It is so true. I mean, it has been for me personally, and I see it all the time since I'm in organizations and kind of outside. And then you get to know individuals and you go, oh, okay, I know why this has happened here. So other thoughts on making the environment more psychologically informed. I loved how you said that. So if the hiring process is tricky, one of the things we do is we measure in the assessment some of their interests and such. So they could use that as and we've got interview questions that relate to that. So if the job requires somebody who has to learn a lot and they didn't score as high in that, then they can ask questions about that. And that might lead into, you know, the questions that we provide that are technically competency behavioral based, that goes a little bit more into their dynamic. And then we have this one other tool that you did not take, but the Hartman value profile that talks about their sense of self, how do they see themselves, their worth and how resilient they are. And so that could tag into it. So just mentioning that with the hiring because that would not make people run, but what are some other things maybe even they're already on board and somebody not operating as successfully as they'd like. Or maybe the leader is trying to connect more with their team. What are some thoughts you give on? If we know that we replicate our early family life, and that's never not the case. What kind of things could I ask or do?

[00:11:08] Nicholas Samstag: These are great questions. I think if I had to design the perfect working environment, I would start with the leaders because the leaders, like it or not, are going to be seen as parents. They're going to be responded to as parents. They're going to be fought with or attempted to seduce them or whatever it is. And so I think, just as a sidebar, I spoke to a fascinating clinical psychologist from Uruguay, of all places. And in Uruguay they have a position called chief culture officer, and that's a synonym for clinical psychologist. And the chief culture officer is there for both the first part of my demographic, the folks who are having some kind of massive psychological trauma issue, and everybody else. And so they function as an emergency service. They come to work every day or. Three times a day or however many times a day they do it, but they are there to talk to folks about whatever they want to talk about. So that's one thought. Create a position where someone's going to be doing that. Barring that, I think the leaders need to have more than a modicum of psychological fluency. And this is one of the things that the world really doesn't know. But because of what you've been doing and I know it because of what I've been doing.

[00:12:23] Nicholas Samstag: But in order to function well in the world, we need a certain kind of psychological awareness. I call it fluency. And that doesn't mean we have to be freudians or this or that. It means we just have to have some kind of basic sense about self and other and how to read people. And we need to know ourselves fairly well. So I would say, I mean, the most obvious point would be that the leaders, the CEOs and the presidents and the directors and all of that have some sensibility that allows them to talk to people in a more nuanced and dimensional capacity than typically happens. They don't have to be psychologists, they don't have to run therapy groups. But I would hope that most parents and of course, that's not true. Most parents would have that. You can read situations and intervene in ways that are effective. That would be my first thought, because otherwise everybody's stumbling around in the dark. And Freud called this the psychopathology of everyday life, and it's one of my favorite books of his. It's like to be whatever normal means assumes a certain level of psychological difficulty. It doesn't mean you're a freak, it just means you're a person.

[00:13:28] Suzie Price: Yes, yes. Take the stigma away. From having emotional problems or having family issues that still haunt you or take the stigma away. Yes.

[00:13:40] Nicholas Samstag: Right. And also, I mean, you can teach people to do some of this, obviously. And people do. I don't know if I came up with this or if this already existed, but I refer to proxy arguments and proxy conversations a lot. As I say, I don't know whether I invented that or I got that from somewhere, but what I mean when I say that is that there are all kinds of discussions, fights, interactions we have with friends, lovers, family members that are ridiculous. I mean, they're just blatantly so. Take the couple who is fighting about who didn't empty the garbage, or the high decibel, emotionally fraught conversations that clearly are not about what they manifestly suggest that they're about. Those conversations happen everywhere, in every walk of life, every person on the planet. Right. And so when you have them, the temptation is to think, oh, that's just ridiculous. We'll never do that again. That's a big mistake because you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. There's something very important happening in those conversations. It's just not literally what it's about. So you're furious about the fact that somebody didn't bring the milk home, or I'm really upset about the laundry or whatever it is, right? That's nuts. But it's important to understand that something is being triggered there. That probably goes back pretty far in time and that if recognized and engaged with, could be to everybody's benefit. And that could happen between the senior partner and the director of whatever it is. And they're screaming at each other. Or it could be someone's leaving in tears because of this. And it's typically not about those things. Right. So that's something you can teach people to do. You can teach people to recognize proxy conversations and view them not as an irritant and as an embarrassment, but as an opportunity to really get deeper with someone. In terms of employees and people in general, people tend to work harder and do better when they feel that they're recognized. And this is one way you do that.

[00:15:28] Suzie Price: I love the language of a proxy statement because it says exactly. It's like, okay, you're acting like this, but it's not really about what you think it's about, right? So that's a good aha for anybody listening. I know I first learned about this through an author who has something called the Detour method, way back before I even had my business, and he would say, if you're overreacting, pay attention because it's not about what's in front of you, it's about something that is unaddressed or not been said. And so like that first thing is proxy argument. Something is being triggered. So something is being triggered. And I noticed that. Then what would you recommend. Like if somebody is trying to help themselves first, what would they do for themselves if they know that they have a heightened reaction to something?

[00:16:17] Nicholas Samstag: Well, the first thing they would do, I think, would be to assume that this has happened before. These things don't happen once. So if you're getting freaked out about the laundry or getting freaked out about the milk, you're someone who gets freaked out about those things, about those relatively anodyne things. And to ask yourself, what's going on there? Like, what is it about those situations? It's typically about not feeling heard, feeling dismissed, I'm not feeling adequate, not feeling loved, being taken advantage of. I mean, usually that's the kind of thing that's happening there. And usually that starts at home. I mean, not every version of neurotic activity can be traced directly back to the crucible of the home, but most of them can. And so those and those are much more the reason they're proxy conversations is that they're much easier to have, even if they're ridiculous and painful. It's much more it's much easier to say, I hate you because you forgot the cat food. Then I feel really inadequate.

[00:17:12] Suzie Price: Ah yes, I can be mad about the cat food as opposed to yes. So it's a proxy statement for how you're feeling, so that you don't have to feel the feels or acknowledge that, I guess. So then once you tie it, so you say, okay, I am upset about this. What does this remind me of? And it's usually not always a logical path to it's not always a oh, it reminds me of the time my mom. Exact. It's a feeling. Once we acknowledge that, do you think we would feel we would be able to close the gap a little bit so it doesn't keep coming up every other minute or?

[00:17:43] Nicholas Samstag: Yeah. I mean, I think these are all good reasons to go into psychotherapy. I mean, this is not and there's going to be resistance there. But again, that second group that I keep referring to, I mean, we all need it. I mean, I was in psychotherapy for 100 years and I'd still be in it. I mean, what's better than that? I mean, it's hard to find the right person. It's hard to find the right method. In South America, since the Second World War, no self-respecting educated person would not be in psychoanalysis. Not because they're bleeding from the neck, metaphorically, but because they want to learn about themselves. They've seen their own patterns intellectually solid, engaged people want to know more about who they are. So they go into psychoanalysis. And that was true in this country until, I don't know, 70s, early 70s, 80s insurance companies used to pay for five times a week Psychoanalysis.

[00:18:27] Suzie Price: Wow. Really?

[00:18:29] Nicholas Samstag: Yeah, because do.

[00:18:30] Suzie Price: They do that now? Do they pay for it? I don't know, they.

[00:18:32] Nicholas Samstag: Don't pay for anything.

[00:18:33] Suzie Price: Now. Yeah. Wow.

[00:18:35] Nicholas Samstag: They pay for very little. But I think these aren't I mean, superficial attention will breed superficial results if one's actually interested in knowing who you are. I would say check out a psychotherapist. A good one, and you don't have to pay my high fees. You can find people who are perfectly good who can help you. I would stay away from telehealth people, frankly, because I just don't think that's a group that's typically top notch. But yeah.

[00:19:00] Suzie Price: I'll make a statement here. Now, I have done and I don't talk about it that often, but I have done therapy multiple times in my family history is really a little strange, and I don't want to repeat that. And it's always been for a purpose. It started out with a purpose like so maybe a particular relationship was how it started, or the last time around was I had such anxiety when I would speak or present and I had all the skills and tools to do it, so I knew it had nothing to do with skill set. It was something else, and I'd had the earlier therapy that helped me figure that out. So I went to that prior detour method guy that talks about, hey, if you're overreacting, kind of you're having the proxy argument. So I knew and then, I mean, it's made a huge difference in my life and I'm sure I could go again. I mean, but I've had little pockets where I've gone and paid it out of pocket because it's not covered, but it certainly got me to the next place.

[00:19:58] Nicholas Samstag: Yeah, it's one of the greatest things you can do for yourself too. It sounds corny, but really sort of maximize who you are, really who you are, as opposed to who you've been told you are. I mean, that's a whole other thing that there is talking about. The self is always complicated. I've never liked the true self false self business, but the self contains many different parts and we're not familiar with all of them. And there are certain parts that we need to see less of and other parts that we need to see more.

[00:20:22] Suzie Price: Yes, and it can be a little I mean, I can think about different things that happened in this most recent one that had the whole anxiety about speaking. I thought that's what I was going for, and I did improve that, but it was through a whole other lane. It was about what did you say? Replicate your early family dynamic? It's never not the case. So it was totally related to that. And that's immediately where she took me. I'm like, well, I didn't come here to relive all that, so but I did it because I trusted her and gosh darn it, was that not the pathway to getting to a better place?

[00:20:55] Nicholas Samstag: Yeah. No. It can be extremely liberating. Yeah.

[00:20:57] Suzie Price: And in the moment, some of the things that you're asked to do feel so personal and so raw. And then once you get through it, you're like, okay, that was fantastic. And you can't explain it to anybody. That's the other thing. You need to not need to explain it, because you just have to kind of trust the process if you, like you said, got the right person. How do people know if they've got the right person, therapist wise, do you think?

[00:21:21] Nicholas Samstag: Oh, that's another great question. How do you know?

[00:21:23] Suzie Price: I didn't prepare you for this one? It's not on our list. But no.

[00:21:26] Nicholas Samstag: That's fine, that's fine. I've certainly thought about this many for many years, I think. How do you know? I think there's not one answer to that. But I think you're with the right person. If you feel comfortable talking about anything, that's the right person. And assuming that they're a nice person and they're not narcissistic or controlling or silent or I mean, but I think if you want to do deeper work, psychoanalytic work, you should be able to talk about the various things you really don't want to talk about.

[00:21:53] Suzie Price: Yeah, you may be uncomfortable doing it, but they are a person you feel okay doing that with.

[00:21:58] Nicholas Samstag: And I would also say as a consumer of any type of psychotherapy, please tell your therapist what you feel about them and what's going on. And if you don't like what's happening, voice it.

[00:22:09] Suzie Price: Yes. So it's about having more honest conversations. That's where you get to practice that.

[00:22:15] Nicholas Samstag: Yeah. And it's about building an alliance and building people who do this for a living are trained in helping people take a look at themselves. Not everybody is going to be in love with the same person. So you have to find someone that you trust and that you can talk to about those things that have been buried for so long.

[00:22:31] Suzie Price: Let's talk about something that gets bandied about nowadays more as people talk about, oh, he or she is a narcissist. And I'm not sure where that goes. On your continuum, where you have the language you used was somebody who needs immediate care, and then you got this whole other the rest of us. So I don't know where narcissism actually falls on that. And talk a little bit about that. I'm assuming it is in corporate America and you see it. What is it? It's everywhere. Yeah. Talk a little bit about it.

[00:23:04] Nicholas Samstag: It's always everywhere.

[00:23:05] Suzie Price: It's everywhere.

[00:23:06] Nicholas Samstag: It's everywhere. So yeah, this is one of my favorite subjects, narcissism. So it's an odd diagnostic category in that. And there's a whole history here about that word. The word comes from Ovid, the famous Latin poet describing a Greek youth who is racing through the forest, being pursued by someone who wanted to have sex with him. And he was running away from this pursuer, and he turned the corner, and there was a body of water, and he looked in the body of water, And you saw his reflection, and he was so taken with his reflection that he fell into the pond and died. And out of that came the flower that we know as Narcissus. So that's where Narcissus comes from.

[00:23:47] Suzie Price: Interesting.

[00:23:49] Nicholas Samstag: A very brilliant literary person I was in contact with years ago, in a wonderful essay of his, said that we could conclude from that story that the narcissist is someone who would rather kill themselves than be in a relationship.

[00:24:03] Suzie Price: Wow.

[00:24:04] Nicholas Samstag: I say that as a prelude to taking this more seriously, but I think that's illustrative. The reason that it's an odd diagnostic category is that it essentially is trying to describe the relationship we have with ourselves, and we need to have a relationship with ourselves in order to function in the world. People who don't have relationships with themselves, with any kind of consistency, are psychotic. Part of being psychotic means that there's no you don't feel you have any base. You don't feel that you exist in any kind of wholeness. You're all over the place, right? So to have a relationship with yourself is not a diagnosable thing. It just means you're human, right? I need to have some reflective capacity self-reflection. I have to have some of that. Right. That doesn't make me a narcissist in any in any diagnostic category. I'd like to think of narcissism as having to do with a self relationship that's gone awry. So it doesn't mean that you think you're the best thing, but it does mean that you think you're exceptional across many domains.

[00:25:05] Suzie Price: Is it a false thinking, or are they just like they don't really think it, so then they dig into it? Or is it, do they really think that they can be people that don't have a good sense of self sometimes will act bravado, but they don't really have it. But this is they really think it.

[00:25:19] Nicholas Samstag: They really think it and they really don't. There's always two poles. One of the things that makes narcissists so brittle is that they don't believe in their own reviews, and so they're constantly shuttling in their mind between feeling like the worst thing in the world and then the best thing in the world.

[00:25:36] Suzie Price: So they typically have a real low sense of self. They act and play out this intensity.

[00:25:43] Nicholas Samstag: Yeah, it's a bifurcated sense of self. It goes to two domains. I'm either the best of things or I'm the worst of things. I have a patient who is very lovely, very brilliant woman, actually, and she has the sort of negative valence of this where she's continually thinking of herself as the worst possible person in the world. That's narcissistic right? It's a self relationship that is getting in the way of other major things. The purpose of diagnosis and pathology while we're on this is really to understand what the problem is. And this is another thing that I think my field often misses. Whereas what's the problem I see in my graduate students? What's neurotic about neurosis and what's psychotic about psychosis? If someone says, I have a drinking problem, it's like, well, okay, what's the problem? They say, well, I'm drinking X amount of drinks a day. I say, well, what's the problem? Well, there's no problem. I just have all these drinks today. I said, well, that could be a medical problem at some point, but that doesn't seem like it's a problem, right? Could be the problem that your wife doesn't like your drinking. It could be a problem that you fall down drunk. What's the actual problem? And I think that's often missed. What are we really talking about? Narcissism is a problem when that self relationship gets in the way of love relations, business issues, health issues. Right. You're so wrapped up in your own self that other things are going by the wayside. That's when it's a problem. And that's what makes it a really odd kind of diagnostic label. At base, all it means is I have to have some kind of self-reflection.

[00:27:08] Suzie Price: Yeah. And it's confusing. So I know somebody who, in my family who's dealing with what I guess is someone who has this. And what happens is there's a lot of confusion by the people around them because they tend to if you question them on anything, they and I would see this maybe happening in corporations. You could tell me, but if you question them on anything they say, how dare you question me? You turn it around and then the person that's trying to just. It all gets turned around and it just creates a lot of confusion.

[00:27:39] Nicholas Samstag: Right? I think real narcissists, they're loathed to be told that there's anything they don't know. They're always right. It's the opposite of critical thinking, right? You can't really critical Think if you're narcissistic because you're acknowledging too many possibilities.

[00:27:54] Suzie Price: Wow. So if somebody thinks that they're dealing with this with someone at work, is there an approach? Is there anything that works? Or I think about my family member. I don't know that this person really is narcissist, but based on things I've read and things you're saying, maybe that's the case. I mean, what's the is there any kind of action?

[00:28:13] Nicholas Samstag: It's a hard grio to sell on psychotherapy, because the very nature of the beast is that they think they know everything and there's nothing to do. So it's a hard sell. I mean, you know, if people can be remanded to treatment, you could be an institution where they say if you don't get treatment, you're fired. That happens. And in families, unfortunately, this is now in the category of personality disorder. Personality disorders are real things and they're really tough. Personality disorders are tough. They're not typically psychotic, but they are very entrenched and very brittle and very difficult to deal with. And if you have folks like this in families, the scenario is typically twofold. One, they run the families. They're essentially the center of the family. It's either because of direct control of the family or their difficulties and the attention that those cause the family, they run the family essentially, or they get kicked out and people say, sorry, Charlie, you got to get your act together. Otherwise, no more Thanksgiving dinner for you.

[00:29:09] Suzie Price: If they are given an ultimatum, have you seen people who have had this disorder course correct. Or very rarely.

[00:29:17] Nicholas Samstag: Very rarely. I have known people who have gone in. I've treated some of them. It's not fun for anyone concerned. But yeah, when folks who have this or also have some kind of reflective functioning that makes them realize they're going to be friendless, pretty soon they'll get into treatment. It's never one way, but they'll do it. And there are there are inpatient treatment programs for this. They keep them there for a while. It also, unfortunately, goes hand in hand with other personality issues. And so when you have folks who are suffering from two at the same time, that's a particularly bad combo.

[00:29:53] Suzie Price: What would go with narcissism? What could it be? Alcoholism or drug addiction or something else?

[00:29:59] Nicholas Samstag: Sure, all of that. But in my experience, it's often what's called borderline personality disorder. Borderline personality disorder. Narcissism go hand in hand. Often. More often than we would like to see. So people with a very diffuse sense of who they are, they're kind of all over the place. You don't know who they are with a lot of dysregulation, a lot of affective dysregulation. Those are troubled souls.

[00:30:20] Suzie Price: Yes. So if you are in a corporation and you think you're dealing with this, the best thing you could do is?

[00:30:27] Nicholas Samstag: I've never had great luck with HR, but HR is theoretically the place to go. And it's delicate and it's unpleasant and often sad. But if your boss or your coworker is struck by this stuff, then someone has to acknowledge it. And an HR is usually the place that gets called.

[00:30:44] Suzie Price: And I've seen it in corporations. And then I can think about the particular relationship I'm thinking about. They do run things. They're not officially the title of in-charge, but everything's happening around them. And it's a lot of chaos and a lot of confusion for everybody else, because the people they tend to. This is just my little tiny window. You have a much bigger and smarter window, but it seems like they tend to bully people.

[00:31:07] Nicholas Samstag: Every bully is at least a narcissist.

[00:31:10] Suzie Price: There was one book I saw that I thought was interesting, and I listened to it a little bit, but it was called It's Not About You, and it was for the person who's being bullied because the narcissist would have the person being that's being bullied, or the leader or the teammate or whatever, or the family member think that it's their fault.

[00:31:29] Nicholas Samstag: Right. Well, that brings up a really important point, I think, which is if you are in a relationship with someone like this, you can ask yourself what your contribution is and why you're in it. It's easy to look at these folks and say what we're saying because they're so out there. But it's less clear why those of us who don't suffer from that are in relation to them. We marry them. We have friends like this, and then we like, what am I doing? What am I doing? I'm not casting any aspersions, but just the question, like, why am I engaged with this level of craziness? What do I think I'm doing?

[00:32:01] Suzie Price: And that's when they could call someone like you to maybe help them sort through it, because it's more than likely, as you said when we started that I love so much is they're replicating some early family dynamic, and that is never not the case. So if they could figure that out, then they might could find their way through the haze.

[00:32:19] Nicholas Samstag: Right. And this is an endlessly interesting subject. So one of the answers to why we're involved with narcissists and borderlines is that when they shine their light on us, there's nothing like it. There is nothing like it. You're the best thing in the world. You're so creative. You're sexy, you're intelligent. We love you. You're amazing. I mean, who's not going to be into that? But unfortunately, like, the sun comes up in the morning and goes down at night. If you get the if you get that, you're also going to get your worthless piece of nothing. Like we you can't do anything right. You stink. We hate you. And then you go back and forth, which is how they think about themselves. So what I said earlier, it's a bifurcation of things where you they shuttle bus, they and you are amazing and amazing and then they and you are worthless and that's just exhausting. But when they shine on you, it's like, oh my God, I feel amazing. I am just the best.

[00:33:10] Suzie Price: So that's a little bit of why. And they're like, okay, they're getting that from that person. And it just like I said, it's just confusing. Yes.

[00:33:17] Nicholas Samstag: Yeah. And and back to home. It's very rare that we get it's very rare that we get involved with these folks without having had some experience like that growing up, because there are a lot of people who just meet these folks and say, no, thank you.

[00:33:30] Suzie Price: Yeah, everybody else is like, oh yeah, I'm not messing with that. That's trouble. Yes, yes, that's exactly what's happening in my the situation I'm aware of. Let's talk a little bit about trauma. Past trauma and people bringing that into the workplace. And it might have already been answered, but it may. This is a little bit different from narcissism and maybe a little different from mental health. I don't know, but what would you say about that?

[00:33:56] Nicholas Samstag: Well, I think first we'd have to define trauma. I think trauma is one of those words that's used way too much. Somewhere in this 27 volumes Freud wrote, he defined trauma in this very beautiful way. He said something like, trauma is what happens to us when we ourselves and our environment become unrecognizable. That's the level of trauma where our own sense of familiarity and our familiarity with the environment is ruptured, and we really don't know who we are or where we are. The reason that I like that definition is that it doesn't assume that there's any generalizability in terms of what happens in life. Like, it doesn't whether you're in a war situation or whether your nanny left you or whether you're you moved when you were four. I mean, whatever it is, it's not it's not assuming any kind of generalizability. It is exclusively focused on a subjective sense of things. And I've seen it over and over in my practice. I mean, people go through the most horrendous things and would not call those a trauma, and then they'll discover a certain point that their nanny died when they were five and it just wrecked them. So that's why I like that. But regardless, I think that describes a completely hellish experiential chapter in one's life. Like that's hell. What do you do with that? I think you recognize that. I mean, maybe your question is, what happens if that's triggered in the workplace?

[00:35:20] Suzie Price: Yeah. Maybe. Or you just know somebody's struggling and they can fight. Hey, X happened and I'm really struggling. And it is something that's been traumatic to them. Yeah I mean.

[00:35:31] Nicholas Samstag: Again I mean I'm repeating myself, but I would say do you have a good shrink. Because I think it's of limited value to talk about that with one's friends and colleagues and all that. I mean, that's really that's another one of those proxy conversations, I think. I mean, the reason that we were told in graduate school, don't worry about giving advice is that nobody takes it.

[00:35:50] Suzie Price: Right? Yes.

[00:35:52] Nicholas Samstag: If you're a seriously traumatised person, you should probably save those conversations for your shrink.

[00:35:58] Suzie Price: I like that you're repeating it because there is a big stigma. And so just saying, okay, if this is happening, encourage this. Have a chief culture officer. A lot of companies now do offer EAP employee assistance programs and hopefully that that they have good clinical psychologists on staff, I would hope and I like what you said about subjective sense of angst because it was interesting for me. You know, I said I had so much anxiety about speaking, and I do it a lot, and I want to do it, and I'm technically good at it. But the angst that I would have around it was just debilitating, and the answers to it or where it came from were things that wouldn't sound like angst to somebody else. And so the way you describe trauma, those things were traumatic. Yeah, they are no longer traumatic, but they weren't really what any. If I described it to you, you'd be like, huh? But it was to me. And she helped. So. And then it just no longer. It's not like ruling me anymore.

[00:36:56] Nicholas Samstag: Well that's right. I mean, that's a great and moving example of psychological fluency. The whole notion of subjectivity is unknown to most people. Like, what does that even mean? It just means subjectivity is how you know yourself. It's the experience of being you. And your experience and my experience are going to be very similar in some ways and very different in others. And that's that's not that complicated. But that's one of those things that I don't think is readily known or recognized.

[00:37:22] Suzie Price: Yeah. And then trusting that's how you felt. And it just is what it is. And nobody else needs to understand it.

[00:37:28] Nicholas Samstag: Well, right. And I think even more pointedly, feelings never lie. I mean, the feelings are always real. It's the attribution. That's the question. And that's back to the proxy discourse, right? Like, the feelings never lie. I mispronounced the word grocery, and and you burst into tears and I said, why did you burst into tears? And you said, well, I can't believe you pronounced grocery that way. Which to me doesn't make sense. But in your history, the person who treated you really badly pronounced grocery. I mean, whatever it may be, right? Yeah.

[00:37:59] Suzie Price: Or you got corrected a bunch or.

[00:38:01] Nicholas Samstag: That's your subjective series of associations, right? That's what makes you and I just have to say the wrong thing at the wrong time.

[00:38:08] Suzie Price: Interesting. It's amazing that we ever get through a day. And as you were describing, like, all the if you think about it, like somebody comes into a meeting and it's like their whole family sitting behind them. And you got this whole boardroom and everybody's family's behind them. They say how active that family is, how or inactive they are, is how psychologically fluent we are. Right?

[00:38:31] Nicholas Samstag: That's exactly right.

[00:38:32] Suzie Price: That gives you a really funny picture. If you think about a typical boardroom, and then you think about all the people stacked up behind everybody, I love that. How about anxiety and anger? Or you talked about me having anxiety in coping strategies around that. Is there anything different that you would share based on everything we've been talking about specific to that?

[00:38:51] Nicholas Samstag: I don't know. I mean, I think it's very similar. Whatever psychological health means, I think it has something to do with being able to question how we attribute our feelings. I mean, that's in a very simple way. I think that's how we make meaning. Meaning is made when we attribute our feelings. If I go home and I'm really angry and I see the dog, and I think I'm angry because the dog pooped on the rug, I mean, that's the meaning I'm going to make there. But if I come home and I'm angry and I realize that something else, I realized that my boss was really unkind to me. And then maybe have the association that. You know what? People are always making me angry or whatever it is, right? That's how meaning is made. And unfortunately, this goes into education. All kinds of things people are taught. I don't want to step on any toes here, but there's a lot of the world that is very interested in telling us what things mean as an absolute statement, right? This is what this means. That's typically found in different philosophies and certainly every religion. There's no real room for question. This is what the poem means. This is what this means is what that means, which I think is extremely dangerous. But because we make our own meaning, tracing and attributing our feelings. And so that's something that the chief culture officer could help us with. How is it that you came to that conclusion? I realize you're angry, but are you really angry because someone said grocery? Maybe so, but let's talk about it.

[00:40:17] Suzie Price: Yes, I can remember this one particular person that I used to work with in a company, and I was so frustrated with him. I mean, I'm just beside myself so I can remember going into my therapist. So we dissected it and it was, you know, so meaning is made of how we attribute our feelings. So I knew enough to know. Okay, I know it's not about him though he was annoying. But for me to be so worked up, what's that about? And just dissecting that, I mean, just and doing that over and over again you start to see your patterns and then they stop becoming patterns, right?

[00:40:48] Nicholas Samstag: I think it's the kind of discipline. I think being psychologically clear involves a kind of discipline. You have to wait and you have to sort of think through some gnarly things. But we have to take care of our bodies. We have to take care of our mind, I think at least somewhat.

[00:41:02] Suzie Price: Yeah. Which is also taking care of our spirit. Yes. Yeah. So I love that. I love that we've talked a little bit about therapy and consultation. I mean, if we did this, what difference could you see it if an organization had a chief, officially or unofficially, chief counseling officer, we could call it instead of a cultural officer. And they made it more accessible. And what would you see? What would it look like? How would it feel if people were going to the boardroom and they have less people stacked up behind them from their family? More of that was cleared. But what have you seen as you see people change and kind of grow into more fluency about themselves?

[00:41:39] Nicholas Samstag: I think I'm going to repeat myself a little bit. If the folks in charge had an interest in also being in addition to being business leaders, we're interested in being human leaders, then you wouldn't need any directly clinical things like therapy groups or discussion groups, or you wouldn't need any of that. And my desire would not be to turn the business environment into some kind of seminar on psychoanalysis, or I think it would come from the top, as it does in a family. Right. That family, you have family dinner or you don't have family dinner, or you go out on a boat, or you, you do something and you just you don't have to talk about psychological issues for people to feel recognized. I think most corporations and most institutions don't know how to do this. And so they either treat them like robots or functions, or they do the opposite. They do some kind of half baked, you know, goodwill, clumsiness about, you know, I worked at Newsweek for a while before I went back to graduate school, and they were just instituting some kind of gobbledygook therapy there where you couldn't say. One of the great things about working in publishing is that you could just swear. You could just swear all day long and you could tell people exactly what you think, and you could say, someone says, I think you should put this on the cover of Newsweek. And people would say, that is the stupidest idea I've ever heard. And it was great. And people got offended and okay, but you know what? You had to get the magazine out. And then this thing came in where you had to say something like, Suzie, I've heard what you've said and I really respect your intention, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that was just like.

[00:43:13] Suzie Price: It was less authentic, right? Somewhere in between, I guess.

[00:43:17] Nicholas Samstag: Somewhere in between. Right where people can think. Do you really want to put that on there? Yeah. But I think psychological awareness does come from the top. It comes from the top in families and it comes from the top and institutions.

[00:43:30] Suzie Price: Yeah. People are mirroring whoever's above them, whatever they're doing. Right. So if the top leader, we always talk about people first, people before task, before systems. All three matter. But put put people first. In other words, you're interested in them, the recognition of them. And like you said, we don't have to have a therapy session. But if they did make therapy available and they themselves have gone through it, they could be a better model. Let's talk a little bit about you as we kind of come to a close, and then we'll ask you to share some final advice about the work you do and functional workplace environments. But this is the wake up eager strength segment. And we had you were so kind to take the talent insights assessment, which measures communication style and what your most motivated by according to the assessment. And you get to decide whether it's true for you or not of course, but it's always a learning segment for everybody. But some of the top strengths that showed up. First off, the assessment said you are you tend to be very accurate in your communication and clear. And we definitely saw that in our conversation today. And the assessment said that you're very interested in learning and practicality. So which is like a futuristic thinker. So you learn so much and then is able to kind of apply it to be effective. And it also said that you because of how your interest that you're going to be seen as a team player, which could relate to a lot of the society, you have less conflict than other people do with people and a larger selection of friends and careers than most. Does any of that sound like you or any of that ring true or what?

[00:45:17] Nicholas Samstag: I was thinking about curiosity a lot these days, and I think I haven't always felt particularly secure, but I felt secure enough to let my curiosity go a bit. And I think the older I've gotten, and certainly when I got into therapy, I became more secure and my curiosity grew. So I think if the goal is cultivating curiosity, which I think is a great goal, I think the first step is to ask about security, because people who don't feel secure don't have the option of being curious. If you're sitting in a war zone, you're not curious about anything, right? So the more you can pay attention to what you need in order to feel secure, you can then actually ask yourself, what about this? And what about that? There are people who become really anxious at fewer options, and people who become really anxious at too many options. And that's true across pretty much all life platforms, and I think I became one of those people who became very not anxious necessarily, but disappointed with the paucity of choices. I wanted more choices, and that makes me feel more secure. So whether I'm studying ancient Greek, which always sounds strange to say, I'm wondering what I'm going to make for dinner. I feel better thinking about more than less. If you're other people, not so much. Other people feel much better thinking, I'm going to do three things now. Yeah, I think as I've gotten older, I feel more secure, so I feel more able. I sometimes think it indulgent, but to investigate different things, to study French and to do this and to read this book and that book and it makes me feel better. I don't think it's any better than anything else, but I think it just makes me feel better.

[00:46:53] Suzie Price: Yeah, I love your point about. So with the talent insights, nothing is preferred. It's not like, oh, this is better than that. It's just according how you answer the questions. They're saying, okay, this is what you're interested in. And the idea is that it's all good. It's all adds value. Not one is better than the other. So somebody who is more regulatory will be like, oh, just give me two options. And somebody who loves theoretical will say, I want to learn it all. And you were telling me before we started about your amazing history of theater and publishing and Greek and what were the other things? You have an amazing history.

[00:47:28] Nicholas Samstag: I think that was about it.

[00:47:30] Suzie Price: Yeah. And then the therapy, I mean, you have clinical psychologists, psychoanalysts and psychotherapists. What that represents to me in my mind through the lens of the motivators is this love for learning? Yeah, this love for knowing new things. And it usually is new ideas and options that you go after. One of the couple of statements in your strength section, I'll just mention. So those of you who are listening who know the theoretical and utilitarian what that means, ask many questions to find correct answers, wants to know everything about the process which leads to high standards and results. Offers informed opinions on a variety of topics. Would your friends describe you like this? Thrives on the challenge of solving problems. And then here's one. I wonder if you agree with this has an entrepreneurial mindset.

[00:48:14] Nicholas Samstag: Well, that's really interesting. I mean, yes, I do. And no, I didn't even think about that when I transitioned from publishing to psychology. I didn't think to myself until somewhere along the way, oh, I can actually work for myself because I actually hated working for people. I couldn't stand working for anybody, but that wasn't what got me. I thought, this is something that I can do that's really interesting and make some money at it. And then, oh, wow, I don't have a boss anymore. Like, that was amazing.

[00:48:43] Suzie Price: Well it was it's very entrepreneurial too, that you're reaching out to be on podcasts. I mean, that's an entrepreneurial somebody who had less of that in their natural way of doing wouldn't have done that. Yeah. So that's pretty interesting. Well, I sure have enjoyed you being on the podcast today. And I just love all of your strengths and the beauty of you. I watched and I'll put a clip to the podcast interview that you did with another individual that I thought was really solid. I'll put that in the show notes as well. I can't remember his name, Chris Cormier or something like that, but it was a really good discussion. You have a great way of speaking and sharing this. Very enlightening.

[00:49:22] Nicholas Samstag: Well, thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure meeting you and thank you for the opportunity.

[00:49:27] Suzie Price: I like you being here. Let's talk about last little bit of advice. We or information we ask people is what advice would you give your 25 year old self.

[00:49:36] Nicholas Samstag: I would say write more.

[00:49:37] Suzie Price: So maybe your books in your future.

[00:49:39] Nicholas Samstag: Yeah, well, I've been thinking that it's in my future since that age, so.

[00:49:42] Suzie Price: Yeah. Well, you never know. Life continues to evolve, right? If you could have one billboard anywhere, and you wanted to use that billboard to influence others, what message would you want it to have on it and where would you put it?

[00:49:58] Nicholas Samstag: I think the message would be be curious and run it across the sky.

[00:50:03] Suzie Price: Oh, I like that.

[00:50:04] Nicholas Samstag: You know one of the things that curiosity can do is it can combat prejudice, because when you're curious, you're open to alternate viewpoints, you're open to perspective. And if you're open to the alternate viewpoints and perspectives, you tend not to be as strident or as biased as you might be.

[00:50:21] Suzie Price: Love that. That's interesting. You should say that because I have something that's on my daily list. Now, if I have an opinion on something because I can have a lot of opinions, I want to stop. So an opinion comes up, somebody says something and it's different from my opinion. I want to catch myself and I want to say, what is your intention around that opinion?

[00:50:43] Nicholas Samstag: Nice.

[00:50:44] Suzie Price: And it really has shifted. So for example, I'm kind of a big health nut, so I eat a certain way and I have a really strong opinion about me doing that. I don't think everybody else ought to do it. But then if somebody questions or something, you know, if I have my opinion, then I want to say, well, what's your intention around that? Why do you feel like this is the best way. It's like because I want to be healthy, but I also want everybody else to be healthy. So then I just go into the intention and then I'm like, I can listen.

[00:51:11] Nicholas Samstag: Yeah, right. I think that's wonderful. I think one of the things I say to my patients frequently is, why are you bringing this up now to me? And I think you're dreaming this now when they dream. And also back to conversations. It's like in any given conversation, why are we having this conversation? What's the purpose of this conversation? Right.

[00:51:30] Suzie Price: Yes, yes. So just to get out of the stay curious, ask questions. Or in my case, I noticed that I was kind of having some rigidity in my insides when people would be against something that I had a really strong opinion about. Yeah, the flip, the curious. That's interesting. Okay, I like the curious focus, open to alternate viewpoints. Last bit of wisdom to every leader who's listening and every coach that's trying to be with people more and be a better version of themselves. What would you share?

[00:52:02] Nicholas Samstag: I mean, it's been said so many times, but I love the concept of the beginner's mind from Zen that you, however powerful you may be in certain ways, or old or wise or think you are. Try to have that sense of wonder and unknowingness that you once had, because you never know everything, and there's always more to learn and it keeps you honest.

[00:52:24] Suzie Price: And the trick to that is to stay curious. You think? Yeah. Or other tricks to that for people who are really educated and really smart.

[00:52:33] Nicholas Samstag: Yeah. You don't know everything.

[00:52:35] Suzie Price: Yeah.

[00:52:36] Suzie Price: Beginner's mind. And the best way to contact you. We've got your website. We're going to put it in the show notes. You do work with people remotely. You are located in New York. Where are you in New York approximately?

[00:52:47] Nicholas Samstag: In the financial district.

[00:52:49] Suzie Price: Financial district? Okay. We have clients there, so I hope that they will reach out to you. And I just thank you for being on the podcast.

[00:52:56] Nicholas Samstag: Oh, thank you so much, Suzie. What a pleasure.

[00:52:59] Suzie Price: So I hope you enjoy the episode. Lots of takeaways. Get the show notes or look at the transcript. Look at the topics you can go to. pricelessprofessional.com/mentalhealth. You can also access a link to Doctor Samstag. We've got his LinkedIn profile there and his website. Some of the top takeaways from this episode. Plus, I want to share with you some additional resources that you can find on the web page at pricelessprofessional.com/mentalhealth. One of the key differentiations that he made is make sure that in our discussion that we're talking about the people who are abnormally mentally ill. We didn't talk much about that. Those are people who require immediate care. And then there's the rest of us which who we have emotions and things that are bothering us mentally and emotionally, and that is normal. So we want to make sure we're making that differentiation. So I thought that was a good thing that he talked about that. And then he makes this bold statement, first off that most of us are on the normal side of the equation. And so if we are on the normal side of the equation, which is most of the population, most everybody that you're going to that you work with, we've got to recognize the power of how family systems come into play in our interactions. And this is never not the case. He says that we are all replicating and reacting to early family dynamics, and we're having these proxy conversations, which are emotionally fraught conversations that are about something else that has been triggered, something that has happened before.

[00:54:32] Suzie Price: So I find that fascinating. I think I mentioned, I'm pretty sure I mentioned in the discussion that I have had different coaches, different therapists. In order to be a good coach or consultant, you have to know how to manage your own relationships and your own energy. And when you're getting into conversations with people, you're not. I am not trying to be a therapist, but I want to bring my best version to the world. And I had a nice family situation, but there certainly were things that were bothersome that I had not really worked through, and I could see myself reacting sometimes to situations that were not just about the situation. It triggered something within me that I had not closed the loop on about family dynamics. So it's true. I think it's true. And if you find the right coach and person to help you with this, we don't want to stick our head in the sand and act like that's not us because it's normal. It's normal. It's we're not mentally ill because we have a situation that we're reacting to. It is normal. And as he said, and I put it in bold letters in my note, it is never not the case that we're not reacting based on some type of family system. If you think about our formative years are our formative years. So we respond to things based on different reactions from our family dynamics, and so it's really smart to understand them. So I encourage you, if you're having a lot of emotional discussions or unresolved conflict, look at that and don't ignore it. So that's important. Another thing we talked about is narcissism. And that is when your self relationship has gone awry and that someone if they have narcissism, they don't like to be told that there is anything they do not know. And I find that fascinating. As I mentioned earlier on, there has been a couple of situations personally and professionally where I think this person might have some of these tendencies. So one of the books that I read that's in the show, notes, in addition to the great conversation we had with Doctor Samstag, is a book called It's Not You Identifying and Healing from Narcissistic People. There's a link to that in the show notes. Check that out. I was listening to it at the podcast and the book to be a help to someone. I know who I think is in a situation with this, and it helped me understand this personality style or troubled personality. And then the other thing I want to mention is emotions, he said.

[00:57:03] Suzie Price: Emotions like anger are not inherently bad. It's how we attribute and understand them that matters. And I think that's where the psychological fluency comes in, so that we understand we don't label our emotions, we don't think we're wrong to have the emotions, but we know how to manage them. And so acknowledging the legitimate reasons behind our emotions can lead to productive anger management, anger management. And he said feelings never lie. I thought that was super important. So honoring your feelings, I think through my coaching relationships, I've been in my own business. I started my business at 38 years old and was in the middle of a lot of conversations that I really wasn't quite ready for, and every coach that I had hired along the way, or different therapists here and there, really taught me to honor the feelings and let them be guides, and to know how to manage those feelings so that I can be present. And I'm not in the past. In my current situation, I'm actually present with people, so that is a journey for sure. I first found Doctor Samstag through an interview that he did with Charles Cormier, who is a very interesting thought leader on social media, and a couple of things that he said in that discussion that I highlighted. He said there's nothing more profitable than being psychologically clear.

[00:58:24] Suzie Price: I love that statement. So being psychologically clear is understanding when we're having reactions. And kind of back to that thing about feelings never lie and knowing how to manage that. And people that live and have become experts in feelings and emotion and can help us work through those are super helpful. And another thing he said in that Charles Cormier interview was slowing down. Being curious about others and engaging in meaningful conversations are essential for building strong relationships and communities. So taking the time to get to know people, to connect with people, we talk a lot about that, about putting people first. Yes, we need to talk about strategy. Yes, we need to talk about implementation, but we also need to tune in to the person. And if we slow down and we're curious about others and we have meaningful conversations with them, then we're going to do have a better relationship and a foundation to have a stronger relationship and get more things done and talk about the strategy. So it's always what we talk about when we talk about building trust. Now, I mentioned that early on when I first started my business, actually, when I was 38, I met John Lee, who's a therapist, and he talked about the detour method, which is a process that allows us to manage our emotions and understand when we're having a reaction to something, whether we're reacting to the thing in front of us or we're bringing our own past history with us and we Doctor Samstag and I talked about being in the boardroom and the whole stack of family members in the background behind us.

[01:00:00] Suzie Price: If we haven't dealt with them, we're bringing them with us to every board meeting or every discussion that we have. So there's an episode that we did called What to Do When I'm Angry, How the Detour Method Can help, and so I have a link to that in the show notes at pricelessprofessional.com/mentalhealth. And in that episode he talks about it's saying the same things that Doctor Samstag has shared, but it's just in another different verbiage. But talking about giving attention, empathy, listening to people, taking time to connect. There's questions that we discuss about the detour method. It's an actual process. And doctor Lee talks about the method as the detour, meaning I'm not going to I'm upset. I'm not going to go straight to the person that I think I'm upset with. I'm going to make sure that I've tuned in to how I'm feeling, and I'm going to manage that. And so there's five essential questions. And back when I was 38, he was teaching me to teach this process. And I did a little bit of it with some clients. So I encourage you to look for that in the show notes at pricelessprofessional.com/mentalhealth.

[01:01:06] Suzie Price: If you want to dig a little deeper around that. And then during Covid, I had doctor Lee back on and we talked about an unexpected antidote for anxiety, fear and stress. And so you can check in to that episode. And then there's a book that I also recommend called Growing Yourself Back Up Understanding Emotional Regression, which is that idea of bringing your family situation and building more psychological fluency. So there's a link to that in the show notes. I hope you enjoyed the episode. I hope there are takeaways for you. Please subscribe to our podcast anywhere that you get your podcasts, and then tune in on our upcoming episodes. We've got some new things coming out here shortly, but you can also see our directory of all our episodes at wake Up eager workforce.com. And if you have a review or insights that you're willing to share, if you've gotten something from some of our episodes, we sure would love to have the review, and you can let me know that you've created one on Apple Podcasts, and I will send you a complimentary assessment. Just shoot me a note at pricelessprofessional.com/suzie. Thanks for tuning in and I hope you go out and have a wake up eager kind of day and take care. We'll see you on the next episode.

[01:02:24] Intro/Outro: This episode of the Wake Up Eager Workforce podcast was brought to you by Priceless professional Development. Thank you for tuning in. If you enjoyed today's show, head over to Priceless professional.com to gain access to more professional development resources.