Wake Up Eager Workforce 
Episode 121 Transcript

Suzie Price: Today I'm speaking with Neil Smith, who is the former general manager and president of the New York Rangers National Hockey League. He took them to their first Stanley Cup win in 54 years. And I'm talking to his colleague and friend Allan Hamernick, who is the founder of CoreFive analytics. He's the founder and owner of that company. They do similar assessment tools and processes where colleagues in that way, and he focuses on using those tools with athletes. He also works in corporations. So you want to tune into this episode today if you are using TriMetrix for hiring and coaching and you want to deepen your expertise, you want to tune in to that. If you are a talent scout, I would suggest that you are a talent scout. Whether you're in sports or business, if you are hiring and promoting people within your organization, and you want to do a better job of putting the right people in the right seats and picking the top talent. We talk about that and how they're using different tools and and guiding leaders in the NHL to make good decisions and make good drafts. And then lastly, if you like sports and particularly like hockey, you're going to want to tune in. I don't know much about hockey, but I sure did learn a lot. And I found it fascinating to see how they work. And you will see a lot of parallels into what happens in the sporting world and professional sports world and what happens in corporate America. So I can't wait to share it with you. Michael. Hit it.

Intro/Outro: Welcome to the Wake Up Eager Workforce podcast, a show designed for leaders, trainers and consultants who are responsible for employee selection and professional development. Each episode is packed full with insider tips, best practices, expert interviews and inspiration. Please welcome the host who is helping leaders, trainers and consultants everywhere Suzie Price.

[00:02:00] Suzie Price: As Michael just shared with you, you're listening to the Wake Up Eager Workforce podcast, and I am Suzie Price. Here we cover everything related to helping you and the employees in your organization. Build a high commitment, low drama, Wake Up Eager workforce. Bottom line we help leaders and organizations make good decisions about their people. We want to see everywhere. It's my mission in life for people to be waking up eager. No more scary Sundays. That was on our last episode when I was speaking with Tamara McLemore. She talked about Scary Sundays. Scary Sundays? What is that? That is when you are enjoying your weekend and then you say, oh darn, I have to go to work tomorrow. I don't like it. And Scary Sunday implies I really don't like it. And so if we're waking up eager on a daily basis, even on a Monday morning, we're waking up eager because we're a good fit for our job. We get to use our talents. We feel on purpose. We have a leader that we respect. We have a team that works well together, and we just want to be a part of creating that kind of world. It is what wakes me up every day with interests. It is something that I have worked for, for myself, and I cared about it since I can ever remember how important it is to feel good about your life and enjoy what you do, who you are.

Suzie Price: And I just love that we get to do that here on the podcast. I particularly enjoyed this episode with Al and Neil. It is episode 121 and the title is Quantifying Character TriMetrix and Axiology in NHL Draft and Prospect Development. So yes, we are talking about how we use this with the NHL, but boy, are you going to get a lot of insights the tracker for the show notes for this. So if you want to see the show notes, see some of the links. We link to everything we talk about. And I linked to other episodes that are about this and and some of the links I'm going to share with you at the end of the episode, when I kind of share some of my favorite takeaways, but the tracker link is pricelessprofessional.com/nhl. Pricelessprofessional.com/nhl for the National Hockey League. But it's always lowercase. All right so the three things we talk about are kind of groupings of things that we talk about is embracing new approaches and talent scouting the application of assessments and NHL player selection, analyzing risk attributes and decision making with the Axiology and acumen assessment to make better decisions. So Al does a great job of pointing out how Axiology goes deeper. That's the acumen part that measures how we think, feel and make decisions.

Suzie Price: But how he uses this whole inventory of tools to help leaders understand who they're hiring, who they're scouting, which draft picks they want to make by analyzing information about them that they can't get from just watching them play. So you'll hear that conversation. It's very, very interesting, and it helps you understand the power of the tool that we talk about a lot, which is the Axiology acumen assessment that allows you to go deeper so you'll get we'll dig into that. And there's some real life case studies around players about personal impact. And so we'll talk about that about how this impacts the sport, the team and each individual. Let me tell you a little bit about the two guests today. Al Hamernick. His nickname is Hammer, the Hammer when he was playing hockey with Neil. But he is the owner and founder of CoreFive analytics. It's an assessment based, data driven consultancy. He talks a lot about the data, and he uses this data and talks about how it assesses character and helps organizations apply character and predictive analytics to improve selection, accelerate development, and increase performance. That is so well said, because that's exactly what these tools do and what TriMetrix helps us do. Some of his clients include Western Canada's most respected companies, as well as Olympians, world champions, players and coaches from the NHL, CFL and the CHL.

Suzie Price: Now, Al played four seasons of hockey, so that's where the love of hockey comes with the NCAA Division I Western Michigan, where he got his bachelor's degree in education. He also has a master's degree in education. So you'll you'll see how he is an incredible learner and has great insight. He also has a powerful background of two decades working as a senior human resource leader in operations and corporate in the mining industry, so I think that is very interesting. He's bringing his corporate experience and taking it into something he loves, which is hockey and sports. And so he founded his company, Hamernick and Associates in 2004.

Suzie Price: A little bit about Neil. I mentioned in the opening about him being executive, serving as president and general manager of the 1994 Stanley Cup champion New York Rangers. He was 11 years with the team. That particular win was the first in the franchise's 54 years. They had one other kind of champions throughout that time and President Trophies, and he's known in the NHL world about his knowledge and expertise about sports franchise economics, which he talks about. He plays a role in management decisions when he was working for the Rangers, of course, and pivotal decisions that they made and trades and acquisitions. And he talks about it and we go into that a good bit in the episode, which is interesting to learn more about the draft and how the decisions are made, And I think it's fascinating that he was one of the people, a lot of famous people, but I don't know many of the hockey players. But I do know Wayne Gretzky, and he was part of getting those different Hall of Famers such as Wayne Gretzky drafted with the team that he served. He's great at dealing with media, and when we do the wake up eager string section, you'll hear that and you'll see that in his approach. He has his own podcast now called the Wrap Around Podcast, which again is about using his hockey information and being a leader and being visible and being a good spokesperson. So he talks about some of the bold trades that he made and how that impacted the teams. And he was drafted to play early on in the International Hockey League. He also played at Western Michigan University, where he first met Al. So they they have a long time connection. And he was inducted into the Western University of Michigan Sports Hall of Fame, which is very cool. So he was a pro scout. And I want you to be thinking of yourself as huh. "I think I'm a pro scout if I hire people". All right. You're going to enjoy the episode. Let's go to that now. Welcome, Al and Neil. So good to see you.

[00:09:00] Neil Smith: Good to be here, Suzie.

[00:09:02] Allan Hamernick: Yeah. Thank you for having us. Suzie.

Suzie Price: You have amazing and interesting backgrounds. We've got the talent scout and the hockey player and team manager and leader. And then we've got Al with all his human resource background. And then you played hockey. I mean, just just going to be a super interesting episode. And we are going to talk about TriMetrix and assessment tools and how you use them. Al, your company is called CoreFive analytics, meaning you really focus on five core measurements. And since we're going to talk a lot about that today, I think you could start us out with giving us a description of those core five measurements and a little bit about each, and maybe why you use them.

Allan Hamernick: Yeah, So I started the company because I knew that there was a need for particularly selection has always been a big part of my interest in human resources because I learned early in my career, if you made a mistake at that point, I would end up dealing with it later on. So I knew, okay, that's important. So I had a vested interest in it. So I was, uh. So what I did was I always looked at better, better ways of doing things. And, and so what I did is one of the projects I worked on, we worked with a company called The Brooks Group out of, you know, if you run into ever heard of Buddy Jones anyhow. But he did a program called Impact Sales, and they used the TriMetrix HD assessment as a tool to help, you know, sales people understand themselves and how to more effectively interact with others and those types of things. And also they use the benchmarking process for recruitment, you know, or for the selection piece. So when I saw that I started this boy, this stuff looks pretty good. So I started using it for other applications. So we started using it for operational positions and those types of things. So as I reached the point in my career with transitioning into athletics, I knew that you could use these tools more successfully. And when I looked at the NHL, for example, you could see that the record of NHL teams is very poor when it comes to the draft.

Allan Hamernick: So I knew that when people make mistakes in selection, it's most often due to mistakes related to the character of the person, as opposed to the resume and skills and experience and those types of things. So I thought if we could come up with a good way of measuring character, that that would be something that would be of interest to people in terms of improving their success. And that's really what I started with. And so with the TriMetrix, there's really I like to refer to it as the science behind the understanding and mastery of self. So within that suite of products that's offered through the TriMetrix assessment plus EQ, there's there's five pieces to it. So the first piece is the DISC assessment, which I'm sure lots of people have heard about. But basically what DISC is, it's just a how you present yourself to others, how other people see you. So it's really about your personal style, how your communication preferences, how you respond under stress and really how you make decisions. Are you cautious decision maker, a quick decision maker, those types of things. So the primary use of that is for for communication. But so DISC by itself is a tool for selection. You wouldn't you wouldn't use it because that's not really what's intended for. But it can provide information in the selection process. But you wouldn't be relying on it. The next one is the motivator assessment. So really what the motivators is, is those things in life that inspire you kind of put gas in your tank, get you going in the morning. So we measure those. There's six of them that we measure. And what's good about it, we can not only measure which ones are most important to you, but we also can measure which the the level of intensity of each of those motivators. So for some time with people, we would look at them and we could see across six there's not a whole lot of variation, so there's really no indication of any intensity with regard to any one particular motivator. So that's kind of a bit of a flag for us, because when we're looking at selection and performance, we like to see some level of either, you know, kind of individualistic or utilitarian, either one of those either at a passionate or extreme level. It's kind of what we look for. So we can say, okay, this person has some passion about something, and if it lines up with hockey, well, that's that's a good indicator. So the other other piece beyond that is there's a competency piece. So that's really inherent or acquired skills that you've learned that are really soft skills. So people talk about like their decision making, flexibility, personal accountability, those kind of soft skills that you need to be successful in a in a particular job.

Allan Hamernick: The second piece or the next piece is the acumen assessment, which is based on the science of Axiology, and this by far is the deepest and most complete assessment compared to the rest of them. And what it does is it really looks at how you value things and how you think. So it's really heavily weighted to those types of things. So once we know what a person thinks, that tells us how they're going to make their decisions, and then it's easier for us to predict what they're likely to do in a given circumstance. So on the, you know, external side, it's things about people, tasks and systems on the external side. Then internally you're looking at things like sense of self role awareness and self-direction. So that piece in particular is really valuable for us in terms of looking at performance. Because if they're not healthy on that internal side, that's really a flag that we need to kind of pay attention to and ask why that why that's the case. So so that's the acumen. One has also a bunch of indices and stuff that you wouldn't see in other types of assessments is very, very detailed problem solving capacities internally and externally. A whole host of different indices that you can see, and you also can see when you look at the result biases or where people have blind spots, you know.

Allan Hamernick: So when you go through and, and are, you know, are working with somebody, you can say, is this a blind spot for you? So it just gives you all the tools you need to ask the right questions, you know? And then you you get that discussion going. And that's really how you kind of work on the development. So the acumen is by far the best of the assessments and the one that's the deepest because you can dig really deep, go down level by level, by level, by level, and really see what a person's like from, from those views. And the last one is the EQ assessment. So we the EQ assessment is one that just really deals with your ability sense and regulate your emotions. So we're dealing with kind of self-awareness, social awareness, self-regulation social regulation. And then finally motivation. So what we like about the EQ assessment is that motivation is a measure of intrinsic motivation. So we don't see that in a lot of places. So for that that's a key indicator that we look at and why when you're looking for selection, when you can look at people through different perspectives, we can see cross references. So one of the things, for example, if you just use disc, for example, you could say, well, this person looks very competitive.

Allan Hamernick: If you if you looked at tennis players, for example, he said, okay, John McEnroe and Björn Borg for people who are old enough to remember them playing well, you look at John McEnroe and say, this guy is really competitive. He's got to be the greatest. And you look at Björn Borg who's, you know, you think he's probably an accountant or, you know, something like that. He doesn't look very competitive. But nobody was feared more than Björn Borg in terms of playing tennis against him. So with DISC, it can be misleading because what you see is really not the way that it actually is. So that's the value of multiple assessments, because you can kind of cross-reference things. It really get to the the true perspective of what somebody is. So that's really what the what the assessments are about. That's why we use those tools because there's no other product. When I started looking at starting my business that could compete with TTI in terms of research, customer support and those things. And when I look at what it was when I first started to where they are today, it's remarkable, you know, just the terms of change in terms of the research, brain mapping, all that, the way that they do the scientific study. So it's really, really a great company to work with. And so we feel we got the best tools on the market. Nobody can really come close.

Suzie Price: Yes. Yes. It's so comprehensive and I love how you explained each of the core five tools. And I'm going to mention something now for those who are listening, who are people that I work with, I use a analogy, a car analogy, and I say it ties really great with your your description too. So DISC is how you like to drive around five days a week. So you'll see how somebody will drive around, you know, fast or slow? Motivators. Which I love that you said that's a you look for passion when you're looking at NHL players. Motivators is what puts gas in your tank. You can't see it, but car is not going to go or the person's not going to play hockey if they don't have a strong interest or the motivator that's rewarded, and then axiology or acumen. And the personal skill competencies are under the hood. So horsepower you can tweak that if you know what it is. If you know what the measurement is, you know something you can't see. And then the EQ is the driver, you know, and the driver in regard to their ability to manage themselves in situations while they're driving the car. So just mentioning that to people who are listening are used to hearing the analogy. But I want to scoot over to Neil real quick and say as, as somebody who managed a hockey league to the Stanley Cup and played in one was put in the Hall of Fame for the University of Michigan, is that right?

Neil Smith: Western Michigan.

Suzie Price: Western Michigan. Talk a little bit about having been a talent scout and the kind of information that Al is able to bring to the the work of that. I mean, how how have you seen it play out or how can you see it play out in the future?

[00:18:40] Neil Smith: Well, I think it's an unbelievably valuable tool that can be used by people in athletics. I can't refer to the other sports because I don't know them well, but I do know the intrinsic values of hockey people. They push back on things like Al's stuff because of the fact that it frightens them. I think it frightens them because they're used to judging everything with their ears and their eyes. And along comes somebody who says, well, no, we're going to be a little bit more deeper than this, and we're going to take some stuff that you can't see and you can't hear, and we're going to present that to you based upon scientific study. And they push back and go, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I know better, I know better just by watching and which is not possible. So I was a scout for many, many years from 1980 to 1989. I was a scout and did very well, but even in my drafting, I had lean years where we'd miss. So you'd have 12 rounds. You might get one NHL player out of those 12 selections, the National Hockey League average is about 1.3 or something. Al, I don't know if you know that number, but it's something like that. I just saw.

Allan Hamernick: Something the other day. So I think the the one I saw was from 2010 to 2019 and the, the league average, when I calculated it was 22.35%. That was the league average. Yeah. That's 1.5. You know 1.5 players per per draft, one out of seven.

Suzie Price: So that's all they get. So somebody who's NHL illiterate. So they only get 1.5 out of average. One and a half players out of the whole draft season. So they don't get a lot of new talent coming in. Is that what you're saying?

Neil Smith: Well, so here's here's a here's a little backstory on that, Suzie. At 18, the draft happens at 18. Players don't play in the NHL normally until they're 21. Some phenoms can play at 18, at 19, maybe at 20. But normally you've got a waiting period after you draft them of 2 to 3 years to see if they develop the way you projected they would develop. And so what Al is saying, is in any one draft year, you make seven selections. That means 32 teams are making seven selections. That means there's 224 selections in the entire draft. And out of that, each team is averaging about one point something, two, three, four players per draft. So it's very difficult to get more than that. Everybody's watching the same players, everybody's listening to the same stories. And the percentage of players you get out of a draft are very low. So if you take, for example, in Detroit in 1989, just to illustrate this, because I was chief scout then and I was doing things differently than the rest of the league. And so I was pushing our manager to draft certain guys. And one of them was Nicklas Lidstrom, who was a Swedish defenseman, that nobody had really heard about, that I knew about from my Swedish scout, and I was pushing hard for him to let me take him, and we took him in the third round.

[00:21:51] Neil Smith: So back then there were 21 teams that maybe, yeah, 21 teams. And so the third round would have been you can do the math. I mean, there would have been there would have been 210 picks in the, you know, in the first three rounds. Um, and so we took Nicklas Lidstrom on the third round. And then in the fourth round, we took Sergei Fedorov. And then in the fifth round, sixth round, we took Dallas Drake out of college. And then in the 10th round we took a guy named Vladimir Konstantinov from Russia. And so and in the first two rounds we took Mike Sillinger and a guy named Bob Boughner. This is 1989. Well, all those players I just mentioned ended up playing in the NHL from that one draft, and two of them became hockey Hall of Famers. Lidstrom won seven Norris Trophies, which is best defenseman in the NHL, and Fedorov is a Hall of Famer as well. Mike Sillinger, Bob Boughner, Dallas Drake were journeyman players that played a long, long time, and Vladimir Konstantinov won a Stanley Cup with Detroit and then tragically, was paralyzed in a car accident riding in a limo after the Stanley Cup. It's a long story, but anyway, I'm circling back to why I'm bringing this up. Not just to brag.

Suzie Price: Quite an accomplishment.

Neil Smith: Well, to say that Detroit was set up then for ten years, 12 years as a team because they had all these players come in one draft. Now their opponent, pick a team, any team Team X got their average 1.5 players out of that draft. Detroit came up with five players, two Hall of Famers. I mean, you can see how it's set up forever. Now on that draft, I want to get back to Al and what he does so well on that draft. We weren't using psychological profiling. We weren't using intelligence profiling. We weren't using anything. But what we were doing was going to Russia and looking at the Russian players while it was still communist and taking a chance on Fedorov and Konstantinov. And with Lidstrom, who was hardly playing in Sweden, we took him in the third round. He should have been first overall, but nobody knew about him. I knew about him, and so finally my manager let me take him in the third round, like we should have gone in the first, but I didn't ask for him to go in the first. And so he ends up there and it sets Detroit up literally for a couple of decades, right, Al? Like, I mean, they were strong.

Allan Hamernick: Yeah, that was the longest run of any team making consecutive years and making the playoffs. Over 20 years.

Neil Smith: Point is, I want to circle back to CoreFive. The more you can know, the better chance you have of getting it right. If everybody had been watching what I was watching, everybody would have picked who I picked. I have no more ability that way than anybody else. But what I did have the ability to do was to look at things differently than other people looked at them. And that's where we come to CoreFive and analytics and personality profiling and and whatever name you want to use for inventories. The more information I can get about a person, the better chance I have of making the right decision. And that goes for employment in business. It goes for athletics. It goes for everything. Problem that Al's run into because I've been, you know, there with him is that you get pushback on this stuff because it's it's intimidating. Let's say it was me and I wasn't the way I am now. Al Hamernick comes along and says, hey, Neil, you got to try this thing. We'll give you a better look into Connor McDavid than you have. And I'd be like, oh, you can't do that. I know everything, I know I've watched them play 25 times this year.

Neil Smith: I've talked to his billets, I've talked to his parents, I've talked to his school teachers. I know more than well. Yeah, but Neil, this can really help you by telling us what's going on inside his brain and how he thinks and how he makes decisions and what is motivators are. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't take away my skill set. My skill set is knowing who a hockey player is when I look at him. And you're you're demeaning that by coming in and saying you've got other things you can add to that. Well, to me personally, I want everything I can get to give myself an advantage over the next team. But there are a lot of people who get intimidated in, at least in the hockey business, by new stuff, but I think it's terrific stuff. I love it personally. I love anything I can find out. As Al knows, I've done them on myself because I want to know what's going on inside my own head. And it's been very, very interesting. So I as a hockey management person, if I was running a team right now, which I'm not, I would I would welcome it with open arms.

Suzie Price: Yes, yes. And you know, it's it's going back to you, Al. It's, you know, we're all talent scouts and there's always a risk. I loved hearing the inside scoop on like, that particular year and how the draft actually works from somebody who was there doing it. And then you just see how much risk there is, you know, and you can't ever alleviate the risk. But what we always say is you can diminish the risk. You can have less risk because there's always a risk. You know, as somebody, you know, in corporate, you know, you think you have the right candidate and you don't know. You're still guessing, but you're you're putting everything, everything towards it, which is kind of your point. You know, use all the tools. So I'll talk a little bit about you talked about Axiology and talk about Axiology a little bit more, maybe about what that secret sauce is. That would help a scout, you know, and talk about maybe the self view and then talk about how they could use it for team dynamics. And I was thinking as you were talking, Neil, about if you were bringing somebody in, you'd know better how to keep them satisfied. You didn't. You'd know better how to keep them happy, because you have this whole manual of information about about them. So talk a little bit about that.

Allan Hamernick: How what these assessments allowed us to do, and in particular Axiology and the acumen piece was allow us to build a program that was fully customized to what the client wants. So if I wasn't able to do that, and why we can do that is because there's a very robust back end to those assessments where you can access all the data and you can create your own measure. So what we did is, you know, we don't go in there and try and sell, okay. The system generated PTI report because that's not what they want. They want their own terminology, their own definition. So say okay we can do that. But it's still using the same data. So we used a process called competency mapping. So what we did is we said okay here's first place we start as a team gives us the definitions of what they want. And then we go back to TTI and get them to perform a competency mapping for us. So what happens in a competency mapping is they look at each individual assessment and say which information do. This assessment would allow us to predict that a person is going to behave in a certain way. So we go through that. So once we have that, we get all the information we need to do the scoring.

[00:28:43] Allan Hamernick: Because the thing that that people are looking for in selection, they want to know what the what the prospect is like as a person. They need to know how we compare to the what they're looking for. And the third thing is they need to know is how does he compare to others in the ranks? So if you compare to some system generated report, it'll tell you what the person's like, but it doesn't tell you how he compares to what you're looking for. So we're able, with our information to provide him. So just as Neil says, okay, the more I can see. So he seems like a good guy, but that doesn't mean he, you know, how does he line up with really what we're looking for and what's he's like? Because when you look at all the work that's done, and particularly in the early rounds, every, every year, there's mistakes made in the first round. Like people, people number five pick in 2017 isn't playing. You know. So those are you know, those are big mistakes right. Because that's where you're if you make a mistake in the first round, that's that's almost a job ending kind of career almost.

Suzie Price: That's a lot of pressure. A lot riding on that. Yes.

Allan Hamernick: So one of the questions we got when we were talking to one team is we were going through it, and nobody had ever asked me this question before. And they said, okay, can you tell us what this player is going to be like if we give him $3 million two years from now? What's he going to be like? And I said, I have to think about that. So what I did is because I had the information, I could go back and say, so what I did is I went back to a junior team I was working with, and I said, I created a risk attribute index. And so we looked at things like, okay, natural adaptive compliance systems, judgment, sense of self, decision making, personal accountability. We created kind of things that would be indicative of people who would have issues with authority, following rules, issues being coached, that type of thing. So I created the index and I went back to the junior team and I said, okay, here's here's what I did. Can we go back and look at some of the players that you've had that were problems and just see how this would work out? So we did a bunch of them. And almost without fail, this risk attribute index predicted the ones the players that they had trouble with. Yes. So I said that's a pretty, pretty valuable thing.

Allan Hamernick: So when you talked about risk before, that's how I like to, you know, if I think it's the best way to approach selection is on a risk risk management basis. Okay, so we may like the player for his game skill, but at the end of the day, even if you know if there's some things within his character that we don't like, at least when we select them, we know immediately what he has to work on. And we know that if people do the work that they can change, but not that's easier said than done. Right? So so that's kind of how we use the information is we able to create a bunch of different indices that we can kind of fine tune what's required in terms of development. Right. So if you use our system, you should be able to increase your success on draft day by instead of get one and a half, maybe get 2 or 3 a draft or something like that. And then once you get those players in the system, if you can accelerate their development faster than the opposition, then you're getting kind of a two edged competitive advantage. It would be really significant. So if you wanted to do that and do the work with one assessment, you're getting all the information you don't have to take another assessment, right, or anything like that. So you're getting tremendous value for, uh, for your expenditure there, you know.

[00:32:03] Allan Hamernick: So that's really kind of how we, we like to approach it is from a risk management perspective and make sure that they have all the information they need. The other thing, by having a system in place where really we're doing is we're really applying best HR practices. So when you have a benchmark or competency map that that will tell you what questions you need to ask when you do your due diligence, right. So if we see scores in certain areas, we're not we're not going to ask you every question, same questions about every person. We're going to be able to select, okay, this person has like a low self regulation score. He's got low sense of self. So then you can go out and ask specific questions related to things that might be an issue for you. And then you can determine is that an issue or not at the end of the day and then make your decision. So that's kind of how we do it, because it just gives you a system where you can go back and backtrack and, and really talk about why is this person like he is. And I got an example. I mean, we can talk about it a bit later about just exactly how we work through with the with one particular player and said, okay, everywhere we look we see these flags, right? And so it's not just one place, it's everywhere.

Allan Hamernick: And you know, you got to realize too, it's like Neil says, some people are doing their due diligence and they're talking to to billets and coaches and teachers and teammates. That information is all biased, right? So it's like so they gather that. So there's without any kind of, uh, information we provide, there's nothing to counterbalance that. So it's like going to the doctor. You go to the doctor and you tell them, okay, why are you here? He says, oh geez, you know, I can't sleep. You know, I'm losing my appetite. And, you know, I just feel restless or whatever happens to be the case. And then he's going to say, okay, then if the doctor says to you, okay, okay, I think you're depressed. Take some pills, come back and see me. Well, that you know, it's malpractice. It's what a doctor does is he'll take him to conduct his clinical interview. He gathers his kind of qualitative information. Right. And he's going to have an opinion. But the next thing he's going to do is I got to get some quantitative data. So he's going to do some blood work, he's going to do some xrays, he's going to do some scans. And once he's got all that information, then he's going to make his decision. And that's the best way to make a decision is is through applying both qualitative and quantitative information.

Allan Hamernick: So that's what we provide is we can provide that unbiased information to counterbalance. And ideally what we'd like to see is everything kind of line up. So what happens is when we do it, we create a report for the scouts. They go to their territories, they review it, they say, okay, this, this lines up, this is all good with this guy, but this guy doesn't line up. So then we say, okay, what do we do now? Let's go back to the definitions. Let's go back there. What questions do we need to ask. So when they go back and do their due diligence it's with a very specific list. So you've got a problem solving mechanism to the whole thing to get to to get to the truth really is what you're looking at. So that's kind of how we how we do it. And you know, so one of the things, you know, that when I started doing this, I thought it was great. And then the first person I talked to about it to get their opinion on it was Neil, because I respected his his opinion and the work that he'd done. So maybe Neil, tell him about how you came to your conclusion about it and going through the assessments and stuff like that.

Neil Smith: When I worked with Al on this or looked at it, first of all, long before Al and I talked about this, we were, you know, we'd been teammates way back in the 70s, but he I don't know what got us back together again, Al. And when it was. But, you know, once he told me that he had this stuff, this lit up for me because I've always been interested in this. Before I knew Al even did this stuff, I was interested in it. And it takes that kind of a mind. You're not going to convince somebody who's got no interest in it at all to listen to you, right Al? Like, it's really hard if you just are like, I find that all boring. I, you know, I got better things to do.

Suzie Price: We call it the never get its, you know, like so. And that's okay. If they're never going to get it, then it's like, okay, that's not somebody who's a good match for this. They just for whatever reason and maybe they'll get it later or you know, or maybe it's not never get it. So they just don't get it now and that's okay. And so I don't put a lot of attention on that which is smart. And then you got people like you or other people who are more open. Yeah.

Neil Smith: Well and you know, there's certain people, for example, and I don't know if you know this writer, there's a writer out there named Malcolm Gladwell who's a writes a lot of books like Turn the Box Sideways. He wrote Blink, he wrote What the Dog Saw, he wrote Outliers, like tremendous stuff. I'm giving him some advertising, but he looks at everything in a different way. And your mind either works that way or it doesn't. And like, if you like to, um, look at things in a different way. Look at Turn the Box Sideways. Look at it from different angles. Then you're going to be really interested in this. And if you take that, along with the competitive side where you're saying to yourself, okay, how can I get an edge on these other teams? Because if I just keep doing what everybody's doing, I'm going to get the same results that everybody's getting. So I've either got to do it a lot better than them, which is really hard to do because there's really only one way to do it, or I got to do it differently than they're doing it. So let's try to do it differently, because then we got a chance to beat these guys within the rules. We're going to beat the other teams within the rules. And that that always turned me on was, how can I beat the other teams within the rules by doing something they just won't do? And it worked for me in the early 80s with going to Russia, going to Czechoslovakia, going to Finland.

[00:37:48] Neil Smith: I was a young guy. I didn't mind going all the older scouts. They didn't want any part of that. Like it was just, you know, it wasn't fun to go over there, to be behind the Iron Curtain and do those things. I found it fascinating. So I still to this day, I still love what Al does and also what other inventories will show you. And I call them inventories on purpose because a lot of people that don't know call them psychological testing. And it's not fair because it's not a test. It's an inventory. It's trying to see what's going on in there. Not to say what's going on in my head is better than what's going on in your head, or what's going on in his head is no good. It's just everybody's different and we've got to figure out what, as Al's already said, what's their motivators, what makes them tick? How do we do this? How do we make them be able give them the opportunity to perform at their best? And that's by giving them what they need because of their psychology.

Suzie Price: Yes, that is excellent. Excellent. Do it different. Do it different. And we'll put a link to Malcolm Gladwell for anybody who's our listeners who are listening and not aware of who he is and his books, when you talk about doing it differently and you talk about risk, I love the risk attribute index. And that's all you can do is try to reduce the risk. Al talk a little bit about you talked. You mentioned you had someone that you had an as an example. Yes. About that because I think that would be fascinating to get into some of the through.

Suzie Price: I assume you're going to go through axiology a bit on that and talk a little bit about Self-view and some of that, I don't know, but take it away.

[00:39:28] Allan Hamernick: So it is really what, you know, anybody in athletics wants numbers, right? So that's what we provide is numbers. So I'm just going to go through the risk attribute variables here with some numbers. And you can see how convincing it is. And this is for a player that was a first round pick several years ago. Like he's within the top ten who's who's not playing today. So this is didn't turn out to be a very good pick. So we looked at the risk attribute index. So we looked at its compliance. Natural adaptive compliance is natural compliance was eight is adaptive compliance was 18. So that would tell us that this is not very inclined to follow rules or be told what to do or anything like that. So that's one one lens we look at. We say okay, well what can behaviorally they see some.

Suzie Price: DISC assessment for those who are listening, which is how they like to drive around communication style. Okay. Keep going.

[00:40:23] Allan Hamernick: The next thing we looked at is a system judgment score from the acumen assessment. And so what we looked at his score. So it's a low score with a negative bias on it right.

Suzie Price: You remember how low it was> they can score from 0 to 100. And the most we show is 40. And so okay if you don't, just curious.

Allan Hamernick: This case he was about 60, right?

Suzie Price: So 40 to 60 is low. Okay. System judgment. And that's part of the assessment for those who are listening under the hood. Horsepower. Okay. Gotcha.

Allan Hamernick: So that's somebody who's, you know, with those scores, you're looking at somebody who's probably likely very confrontational, you know, has alternatives to all kind of try it this way. He's got some before he finish it. He's got it. He's got his opinion about it or whatever. He thinks they know it better than everybody else. So he look at that and say okay the the his score was 60. The draft class mean is 77. So again we looked at that. That's something that what was his.

Suzie Price: What was his bias or attitude. Did you say it was negative?

Allan Hamernick: Negative. Yeah.

[00:41:27] Suzie Price: Yeah. So doesn't see the rules. Doesn't see the authority and doesn't like it. The negative bias to people that are listening, that are not familiar, you're getting how they think, you know, clarity and how they feel. And so that and that tied with his DISC style, starts to really tell you something. Wow.

Allan Hamernick: He starts he starts seeing this thing coming up. Then we looked at self-regulation score from EQ, I probably we could have used the reaction index information here as well. Probably Suzie you know. Yeah, definitely. The reaction index is kind of like, uh, how they handle, uh, how they react to things internally and externally. Right. So it's kind of like a measure of EQ, so to speak. Right? It's just kind of how they're how they manage their emotions and how they react to things. And that's kind of what that is.

Suzie Price: It's in the axiology assessment.

Allan Hamernick: So axiology, we look at self-regulation so that's it's very low here. He's at uh he was at 63, you know, so he's in the, uh, needs development category in that, uh, the draft class mean is 73. So he's going to struggle with doing the right thing. You know, he's, you know, so self-regulation is a key thing we look at in terms of following rules and the authority and those kinds of things.

It's managing their emotions, right. Isn't that a part of how he drives around? You know, so he's on the hockey. What it might look like is if he's playing, he's going to be the one. What how high was his dominant score in the D? Was it really high. Do you remember?

Allan Hamernick: It was pretty high. It was his dominant scores here. If I look back at it, he was the kind of DI was his primary I was the highest. So he was uh yeah. So he had pretty high. So it kind of lined up that way.

Suzie Price: Yeah. So he's out there playing hockey. Something happens. And if you're not good at self-regulation or you have a reaction index, they're not going to manage their D. They're going to, you know, get in a fight probably or curse someone out or you know, and that happens in hockey. But this person isn't going to ever be able to control it.

Allan Hamernick: Taking bad penalties, barking at their teammates. That kind of stuff. Right.

Suzie Price: Okay. Good.Yeah.

Allan Hamernick: So next one we looked at was decision making. Okay. Again we look at that. He's in the needs development category. He's well below the, you know, the draft class. I mean again so again, if you look at somebody who's not strong in decision making, we're not not getting a lot of positive information here in terms of risk. Right. So there's a lot of things here. Yeah. The next thing we like is personal accountability right. So again where is he. He's in the needs development category. The draft class mean is above it. So everywhere we look he's going to have a tendency to blame others. He's not going to take responsibility. Yeah. So what he's doing there. So we're going to see that. So the next piece we looked at because this was so bad, we thought well let's look at another another indicator here. So we look at sense of self out of the, you know, the axiology assessment. And surprise to what did we see there. We saw a very high score with a positive bias.

Suzie Price: Oh interesting. Tell everybody what that means.

[00:44:25] Allan Hamernick: When you look at that and you say okay, that's somebody who can see themselves as holier than thou, right? I mean, this you can't tell them anything. So that's the case. So when you look at assessment data, a high score is not necessarily a good thing.

Suzie Price: A high score with a positive bias is usually a pause. You know, high score with a lower understanding of others is also a pause. But yeah, so with a positive bias, like you said, they tend to not be coachable.

Allan Hamernick: Yeah that's how we would work them through. And so when you have the numbers you can do it. Yeah right. It's not just like it's not my opinion. These are these are this is data. This is TTI assessment data. Right. The best there is in the world you know for these types of things. Right. And then you can say okay that's that's that's our consensus. So now you can go out and look, ask some specific questions related to this risk attribute index and see what you find out. At least you're going there with a purpose. You're going to come back with some information. So we give them this give not just ask them about it. Give them a score on it. So we give them a little check sheet says okay what are you going to go and beat the low standards meet standard exceed standard. And that's what we ask them to go out and and verify. So that's kind of how we would go through an example like that is using the information to convert to numbers, which you can then compare to other people compare to, you know, standards. The draft class mean the you know, general pop. Yeah. So that's kind of how we do it. We think, well, why wouldn't you want that information? You know, like why wouldn't, how could that hurt you?

Suzie Price: Yeah. How could it hurt you? And you know, the you know, to our listeners, a reminder is the assessment is less than 30% of the decision, but it can help drive the decision because now you know what to ask. And then when you're talking to like for this player, when you're when they're talking to, if you're the talent scout, Neil and you're talking to players, you can ask specific questions about how how well, you know, does this person manage their emotions. Have there ever been trouble? You know, I don't know what your specific questions are, but they're going to be around this theme that you see about authority. You know, is this person able to work? And if you don't ask that specific question, you're not going to get that kind of feedback from others.

Allan Hamernick: Well, you know, one of the things we'd ask, for example, is when he has an issue. Does a player go through his agent? Or does he talk directly to the coach? Because a lot of these kids get agents at young ages, right? So we say, okay, well, how does he handle. Well, the first thing he should be doing is going through his coach, right? So sometimes I'll treat the NHL development staff and the, you know, those people with a lot better than they might their own coach, you know, or people that they work with. So if you ask the right questions, it's pretty easy to come in and like you said, is we said we tell people, you know, you should take this information, put it into a selection model, and that model would have us know more than a third of the decision. So but it's the most important.

Suzie Price: It's a big piece of it. It's a piece they don't have and we call it like you're getting inside out information from you. And then and then the other two thirds of it is the what the rest of the stuff you have in the system. So it's not like you're taking out the person. But it's fascinating. And I think you've probably seen this. Once people get this information, they can't stand not to have it.

Allan Hamernick: One thing, Neil, I mentioned, you know, when he asked him, you know, he'd do a testimonial for our website. What he did is he said that the most important information is whether the player has the skills to translate his on ice talent into a productive NHL career. And that's the piece that we deal with, right? You know, that's kind of what you told me. And that's, uh, that's really was the, you know, kind of very kind of, you know, really excited me about getting going in it because that's really at the end of the day.

Neil Smith: Yeah. And one thing I'd like to add to what you two are saying is that, like you talk about it's it's only one third of the decision. But, you know, if I was to say to you, okay, well, one third is actually watching the player play. And I say to you, well, I didn't bother with that part. I didn't bother, I just went off the assessment and I went off the other third. I couldn't be bothered going to the arena and watching the games. I mean, it's laughable, right?

Suzie Price: You wouldn't do it. It's a big piece of the puzzle, right? We don't want people to make decisions based on it solely, but that's a really good point.

Neil Smith: No one thing can you make a decision on solely. But you shouldn't also be making your decision solely on the fact that you've seen him play for the Swift Current Broncos 20 times this season, and that's enough to decide you're going to take him in the first round, but you've never done anything else. In fact, you haven't even met him. So let me tell you a funny story. In 1986, we had the first pick overall in the draft for Detroit. And I'll never forget this because this is how far we've gone. So the two top players were Joe Murphy and Jimmy Carson. Jimmy Carson was playing in the Quebec League and Joe Murphy was playing at Michigan State. Michigan State is, of course, as you know, is close to Detroit. And Jimmy Carson was a Detroit kid, but playing in the Quebec League. So at the end, near the end of the season, the Michigan State, came in to Joe Louis Arena to play in a tournament. And here was our this was our whole interview process and psychological profile process. Jimmy Devellano, the GM went down and said, hello, Joe. I'm Jimmy Devellano, the general manager of the Red wings. Joe, we're thinking of taking you first in the draft. Would you like that, Joe? Would you like to be a Red wing Joe? And of course, this kid's 18. Oh, yes. Yes, yes, that was the interview process. That was it.

Oh my gosh.

Neil Smith: And that was 1986. And you didn't do anything like that.

Suzie Price: How did it go with that person?

[00:50:04] Neil Smith: Well, he had a long career. He didn't have a first overall career, but neither did the kid, Jimmy Carson. He ended up in fact, Joe Murphy played longer than Jimmy Carson. And it would still be a toss up today. And unfortunately, Joe, Al, I don't know if you know this, but Joe had some real mental problems later in life and ended up on the street in Canada. And, um. Yeah, it's sad. It was really sad story. But my point to all this is we've advanced so far, but we still I'm sitting here as you guys are talking, and I'm thinking about the teams in the NHL today and today's owners and today's GM's, and I'm going through every team in my mind and saying, okay, where could Al and I go? Who do I know that's progressive enough that I could get to them and say to them, you know, Mr. Owner or Mr. President or Mr. GM, just give us a few hours and we're going to tell you about something that can really help you.

Suzie Price: Yes.

Neil Smith: And it always bogs down in the fact that if you go to the owner, well, he'll just say, well, I put so-and-so in place and he's got total control over. Yeah. And then you go, oh, he's never going to buy this. So then you go to the next team and, and you know, the hockey people, as they said, I can't say this strongly enough. They push back on this stuff because it goes at their how they see themselves and what their abilities are, right? Yeah, like I mean, they see themselves as it would be like as if if I said to you, oh no no no no no, I know who a player is and who I don't. I ain't got to tell you, I don't. And I've drafted some Hall of Fame players. Nobody knows for sure. So Al's stuff CoreFive. All these analytics, it can only help you. It can't possibly hurt you.

Suzie Price: Yes, yes. Well we're going to make sure they see this podcast. Who who better to have this with you with your experience and al with your dedication to the tool and all of your background. I mean, you two are poised to blow the NHL wide open with these tools. I really do think that.

[00:52:11] Neil Smith: Well, as defense partners, we certainly didn't get there. So we better get there with this. Yeah.

Suzie Price: So y'all were defense partners on the team.

Neil Smith: Yeah, we were for three years. Right Al. We played, uh, number four and number five. I was number four. He was number five. And, uh. Or was it only two years? Was it three or two?

Allan Hamernick: Three years, I think? Yeah, pretty much three years.

Neil Smith: Yeah. It was a long three years for Al, I tell you.

Suzie Price: Did he get beat up? Is that what the deal is?

Neil Smith: No, he just had to. He just was always, uh, making sure that that when number four was all the way down in the other end of the ice, that he had to take care of the, uh, our, our end because he couldn't find number four.

Suzie Price: You were out.

Allan Hamernick: You know, it was good. We had a lot of fun. So it was really a great, great time together, for sure. But, uh. Yeah. Yeah. So I think just going to add to what Neil was saying that too, about, uh, you know, it's there's risk in doing it. And so one of the some of the feedback we got back in terms of, of, uh, the value that people have seen from doing it is really our ability to identify people with flags. You know, that's because I think that goes back to the thing about the risk hypersensitive about making a mistake. Yeah, right. So really, it doesn't matter if you took Jimmy Carson or Joe Murphy, right? Either of them would have been the same. But if you would have took somebody else who never played. I mean, that's the that's the worst thing is, is there's. So there's a great fear about making a mistake, particularly in your early rounds in the draft. So, you know, one of the things that you know, the with this, it's kind of a self preservation from a general manager or director of scouting thing because to say, okay, why did you take so and so why did you take them. Well, you could go through the data and say, here's what we did. We you know, we've got we watched them 25 times. Here's the analytics from this game analytics. And the other thing we did was we did a very detailed analysis of what he's like as a person compared to what we're looking for in our trade as a team and how we compare to everybody else. And this is the information we had, and that's why we made that decision.

Suzie Price: You can make the case. You can make the case.

Allan Hamernick: Even though the decision turned out to be maybe wrong. Because we're not. We're not perfect. Nobody's perfect. You can make a wrong decision, but at least you ought to be able to say, here's the steps we took. And what else would any reasonable person expect that we could have done differently?

Suzie Price: Yeah, because, you know, the thing is, that seems to speak to executives that I see quite often is exactly what you're talking about. We're using these to reduce the risk. But remember, there's always a risk.

Allan Hamernick: You can't get away from it. Yeah. Human nature. It's.

[00:54:48] Suzie Price: Yeah, it's we're we're complex beings. And the system that we're being put in, whether it's corporations or the league, is complex. So there's a lot of pressure on it and there's nothing more important. As we started out with, you both said it. You liked being talent scouts. You doing it in corporate and Al doing what you're doing now for the NHL. And Neil as a talent scout, you know, basically that's that's the primary thing that determines success or failure in an organization. There's you know, it is the competitive advantage if you can get it right, because people don't make in general, most companies don't make good decisions about their people. They don't mean to, but they don't have this type of information if they're not working with us.

Allan Hamernick: Yeah. So one of the people we work with, and we're quite proud of it now, of course, because of where he is. It was Kris Knoblauch, the head head coach of the Oilers. Now current coach of the Oilers. So we started working with Kris when he was in Erie. And then as well was when he was assistant coach ith the Flyers and then the head coach with the Hartford Wolf Pack, which was the Rangers AHL affiliate. So we worked with Kris, uh, you know, we did we did player reports for him. And when he first started using it, he was interested in just seeing if I can understand the players better so I can communicate better with them and motivate them, get the best out of them. So after kind of a couple of seasons, so what we did is we tested every year or so, every year we're doing year over year testing. So as he got looking at it, he said, geez. I started to look at my own results, you know? And he said, I realized that in order to get better at communicating, I got to understand my communication style better and how I make decisions. So he started working on that, right? And so what he found is, uh, we probably did, I'd say six, maybe 5 or 6 assessments of him. And so he's a person that really kind of gravitated as a believer in continuous learning, because I'm sure he would have had opportunities, I'm speculating here, that he would have had other opportunities to be a head coach prior to the opportunity that he got in Edmonton, but he knew that perhaps he wasn't ready and there was some more work that he needed to do. And so Kris has done that work and is certainly one of the things that people would say about him here is in terms of his approach with players and ability to communicate and motivate, you know, he'd probably be in the top of almost everybody's list in terms of his skills to do that. But it's it's an example of, uh, actually, uh, we did his first assessment. Uh, there was a section in there and he said, al, I don't agree with with this piece of the assessment. He said, I don't treat my players that way. And I said, okay, Kris. Well, why don't you have somebody read it who knows you well and see what they think? So he said, okay. So a couple of days later he calls back and he said, yeah, I had my wife read it and she said, I yeah, she definitely agrees. I don't treat my players that way. But she said I often treat her that way. Oh he said, oh jeez, I never that was a pretty important catch for me I never realized that I was behaving this way in certain things. Right. So so when you go through it and you look at your life as a whole, it's not just how you are at work, it's how you are everywhere. Yeah. And just because I'm this way at work doesn't mean I'm that way at home or vice versa. Right? So that was a big kind of catch for him and an important one. And then, uh, it was a good story. And then, uh, we did his, uh, his second year. We did it, we did a comparison year to year, and this first year is utilitarian was way up and the next year it was kind of down lowest 2 or 3 higher than that. And I said, well, how would you explain that, Kris? And he said, well, he said the team wasn't doing very well and I thought I was going to get fired. So I'd get up in the morning at 5:00, I'd head to the rink. And that was so when you look at these results and you have the discussions, you can see why something changes. But generally everything kind of reverts back to the norm, right? There may be a little variation, but the patterns stay pretty much the same. So again, you know, like full credit to Kris for his interest in in doing it and pursuing it.

Suzie Price: And he's a great example. I think the best, best adopters of the tool are and the best interpreters of the tool. And I insist on this in any of the training that we do is everybody has to take their own assessment, and everybody has to watch the debrief video, and I hope that they will do a debrief call with me or several. You know, sometimes they don't if they just want to use it for hiring, but they are the best interpreters of it because now that now it's not just data, it's actually has meaning. Meaning to it, you know, because they've applied it to themselves. Neil, anything you would add to what Al just talked about?

Neil Smith: No, I know Kris Knoblauch, though. Uh, not personally, but he would know me and I know him and so on and so forth. And this is the thing that drives me crazy, is that Kris Knoblauch is a guy that obviously thinks outside the box. You know, he stepped in this season to coach Edmonton. And just to give the listeners an idea, Edmonton pre-season was a Stanley Cup favorite. Their season started and in the first month and a half to two months, they had an abysmal start. Like horrible. Like everybody's going, how could they possibly be out of the playoffs at this point in the season? A month or two in like what is going on? And they have two of the best players in the entire league on that team, arguably three of the best players in the league on that team. And so they made a coaching change and they brought in Kris Knoblauch, who had been Connor McDavid, their best player, his coach in junior hockey in Erie, where Al met him. And everyone said, well, this is, you know, everyone who didn't know any better said, well, this is stupid. I mean, they're just going and getting their star players junior coach to think that he'll turn things around somehow because of Connor. And even Connor was upset with that theory that was out there when it first happened. Well, lo and behold, as history will tell you, they went on to have this fantastic last four months of the season and went into the playoffs and went all the way to game seven of the Stanley Cup Finals. So they were one game away from winning the Stanley Cup.

[01:00:58] Neil Smith: Wow. And Kris Knoblauch had a way of approaching that team to turn that season around. And so his approach had to be psychologically based and intelligence based, and for him to be able to turn a season around. And from what I understood, he said to them, which is something that seems quite elementary when I say it, but it's not when you're dealing with athletes that are making gazillions of dollars, he said. We're going to look at the rest of the season in small bites. He says we're not going to think about where we are in the standings. We're just going to think about the next three games and how we want to win the next three games, and what that's going to mean to us that we want to win these. And then he went on to the next few games, and then the next few games, the next few games, he didn't let them look at it as well. We're ten points out of the playoffs and you know we've got to win these games or else we can't get in. And what if this what if that. So they ended up in second place in their division and ended up, as I said, going all the way to game seven. So Kris Knoblauch has to have a very high intelligence level, in my opinion, and from what I've heard about him, and from also just watching his body of work and knowing that he doesn't come from the typical, you know, ex NHL player background of just, you know, I played and now I'm taking my skates off and oh, I guess I'll go coach. He's really worked on his craft and the results are there.

Suzie Price: Yeah. Yes. And this tool is is a tool that can help you work on your craft. And apparently he's used that as some of the puzzle and it just highlights what you just shared. Neil highlights how important leadership is on a team.

Neil Smith: Absolutely. And you know, leadership on a on a team, in a company, in a firm, in a anywhere. We have this conversation all the time, not just in hockey, but also I have it with my wife, I have it with my with my people that that I work with. If you have and I'm just going to put it in a funny way, but if you have an idiot for a leader, yeah, your company is going to fail. Yep. Because an idiot will hire other idiots who hire other idiots who hire other idiots. And and and that's just using that term. But if you have, as he always said, the fish rots from the head down. And if you you've got to make sure if you want to be successful, that you're taking the time to put the right people on that team, it only takes one weak link in the chain breaks. Yeah. And, uh, you know, that's why this stuff that you guys do, that you guys work on is so important. And I just love it. I just think it gives you such a competitive advantage.

Suzie Price: Yes. Competitive advantage. That's awesome. Fish rots from the head down. That's great. I had not heard that before, but I'll be using that. That's fantastic. So we're going to go into a little bit about you all and start to wrap up. But Al, I kind of wanted to come back to you. And then Neil, you can share too, any advice you'd give to listeners right now if they're thinking about using these tools, whether they're the NHL, or they're a human resource leader or just a leader. Any advice you'd give around using them? Overcoming challenges. Just anything. Top things for them to think about.

Allan Hamernick: One of the most neglected aspects of development is personal development, right? And people go to all kinds of conferences and conventions and those types of things. And on the technical side of things. But they do very little on the personal side. So at the end of the day, that's your legacy is going to be determined by your personal, your character, really, at the end of the day. Not not your technical skills. So when you think about it from a priority standpoint, that needs to be something that you work on every day. And so, you know, some of the things that, you know, everybody hears now best version of self right. You hear all that all over the place. Well best version of self is not static. So character best version of self has ups and downs. My best version of self could have been two years ago. So unless you're kind of taking stock You know, are kind of checking in with your character. And how am I doing in the various roles in my life? Things get away on you. And so, you know, the best version of self encompasses all your full roles in life. So it's my work, my role as a husband, my role as a father, my role as a as a son, as a, you know, a grandson or whatever. How am I doing in all those areas? So I think that you won't get an understanding unless you've got some kind of language or something to refer to. And that's why we'd recommend, if you're going to do something like this, you have to do it, and you have to do it more than once, and you have to have work that you do in between.

[01:05:31] Allan Hamernick: So, you know, we've we've created a kind of route 66 character development package that would allow you to excel or develop, you know, the top ten things that we see in the measures that we did for the NHL team, for example. So we created a top ten list. What are the most important variables based on how frequently these things occurred in the measures? So it's not I just didn't pick them. That's a mathematical. Yeah. So these ones are important. So when you look at it, if you're good at those things, there wouldn't be any job or assessment that you could take that you wouldn't score well in because these are just all general rounded skills. So I think if you start to, you know, for people forget you got to work on yourself. Right? I think that's that's a key thing. And you got to allocate time for yourself, you know, to take time to to challenge your development, ask questions and then you take assessments year over year. You can track your results. Right. You can see am I getting better? Am I getting worse? And if something's gone off the rails, why would that be? Okay, now what am I going to do about it? So I think those are are things that you need to do is make sure that that's a component of every development plan. So if we work with, with with players on development plan, we make sure that there's a certain component, maybe at least 20% of their annual development plan has to be related to character.

Allan Hamernick: Right? So they've got to work. So that's a constant. So every year. And so I'm not a hockey player. Whatever it is in my job, I'm going to have certain things I got to use for development, but a certain component of that should always be something like character, something that's personal that you need to work on. So I think that's, uh, and if you look at people's trouble in their lives are really related to personal issues or relationships or those types of things. So unless you kind of track it and start developing the skills, and one of the things that Kris said is kind of a testimonial thing was that as he went through his reports on a year over year basis, it provided more depth and meaning and allowed him to better adapt to the challenges he faced on a daily basis. So by just by reading your assessment, it's going to get you to think about things differently or from different perspectives. And if you want to see like our website has a bunch of good testimonials from from young, you know, people on here who have looked at it and how it's changed their thinking. Right. So I think that's what I would recommend to people is you have to allocate some time for, for personal development. And, and that's what's kind of the advice I would have.

[01:07:57] Suzie Price: Love it, love love it. And the love the year over year. And just number one you are the vehicle. You are the you are the hockey stick. You know you are the tool that leads and communicates and lives your life. And if you don't take stock, we always talk about 1% a day and in 70 days you're twice improved. So if you spend time working on something, there will be exponential growth. Well, the same thing happens if you get off track in 1% a day. You get off track a little bit, a little bit. You think about how we apply that to diet or health. You know, we get a little off track, a little off track, and next thing you know, in 70 days we're twice like in another place. That's not good. And so having the measurement is super powerful. I love your advice.

Neil Smith: Well, Suzie, I mean a great example of what you're talking about. Al, why don't you tell them about my scores? Al did some analysis on me, which I asked him to do, by the way, because I'm into this. So in 2016, he did a profile and then I did another one last year. Al, you know, go ahead. Because I think that I think that actually can help your listeners understand what you were just talking about.

Suzie Price: And, Neil, I'm watching your face right now. I can tell you're moved or I think I think I see that you're moved by what, the process or something that happened.

[01:09:14] Allan Hamernick: Yeah. So when we did Neil's scores initially we went back. And really what we saw in the acumen side was the internals. Like the role awareness, sense of self, world awareness kind of future. We're kind of the things that were not where we would like to see them. Right. And so it's kind of left it at that. So they were kind of off. And then when we did them a couple of months ago, we did we just kind of did a another assessment. And then we did is we went back and we compared them. And what we saw was really a big improvement in the internals. Make sense. Sense of self role awareness. Those things that all kind of gone up, remarkably really. And so you know but all the other pieces kind of remained the same. But so that's I think the power of the acumen assessment is you can see internally really what's, what's going on. And, and so Neil, don't know what you want to say from there basically. But you know how we how you explained what the, the difference in the results was.

Neil Smith: Well, because I had been forced to work on myself for six years during that time. So Al did it in 2016 and then did it again in 2024. And he said to me, do you know what's the explanation for this? And I said, yeah, I know what the explanation is. I had to work on myself because of the trauma that I'd been through. I was forced into doing it. I couldn't not do it. And I've worked really, really hard on myself to be able to survive the last six years. So it just goes to show you that if you do work on yourself and we're talking about therapy, we're talking about, you know, trying to make yourself better and again, get yourself through it. You become a better self. You know, you're you're better positioned. Although it takes a lot of work, you have to work on it. You have to want to improve. You have to want to be better. And you find, or at least I find, that at the end of the not near the end of the process yet, but at the at this point in the process, I'm much happier than I used to be, because I think that's all part of it is that your sense of self comes around, and people that go through great grief, or great tragedy, or great trauma have to work on themselves, or they will succumb to that.

[01:11:33] Neil Smith: And so I found it really, really interesting. And it was proven through that analysis that Al did it was proven here's where you were when everything was going good. Things went really bad for you, so you were forced into looking at yourself. And now here's where you are now. That doesn't mean that you wish that that you're glad that thing happened. It doesn't mean that at all. You wish that hadn't happened. But what it did do was it forced you to to work on yourself. And so it's not the analogy of it would be if you had a health scare and you had something that made you change your diet, get in the gym, stop smoking, stop drinking. Whatever the case may be, I'm making it up. And then you did an analysis six years later and your body was totally different than it was six years earlier because you were forced into working on yourself. And so I guess Al that's what I have to say about that. I just think it exemplifies what we're trying to talk about. And you can use me there as the as the example of that.

Allan Hamernick: I just think, you know, that's the example of, you know, when we worked with the, you know, the Erie Otters junior team, we tested year over year. We put them through modules so we could see players who put work in and get better and players who didn't put the work, and they just kind of either got worse or stayed the same. So we had one player in particular. He was there the first year. He took the assessment and got his results and said, jeez, I don't like this. This isn't a very accurate report. This is that's not what I'm like, you know. And so he said, okay, well, whatever we see that, we say, go back and have somebody read it who knows you well. So we gave it to his dad to read and his dad said, oh, he says, what do you think, dad? And he says, this is exactly what you're like, right? And so then he went through the modules and then what he started to do, he started putting work in. And as he started to put work in, he started to think about different things. He started to play more, you know, so he ended up with very poor results initially and then started doing the work and to the point where he ended up having a very successful junior career and ended up getting drafted by the Blackhawks and drafted. Now he's not playing the NHL, but he's playing professionally in North America for a couple of years, now. he's over in Europe playing. But a very wonderful kid. You know, just a great kid who saw the value in it and then started to do some work and saw some results from it. So, you know, again, that was helpful because when he has his draft interview, he's got a whole bunch of things that he could say about himself or how he prepares or how he does certain things that just really separate him from the rest of the herd. So when you talk to players who have gone through our program and the interview process, they seem to kind of be a notch above everybody else. So you've got the right things to say. So, and the other thing to say is, you know, how valuable would this be if you had this information earlier in your life? How would how different would your life be? Yeah, right. So if you, you wait till a, you know, a tragedy or some something to occur before you start doing this stuff, you're not going to have the skills you need to kind of help you cope with it. So the earlier you start this self-development, the better off you're going to be, because once you start, you need repetition to get good at things. So if you start thinking about it and you get you can get reps in every day at all these skills, right? You don't have to do any extra work. You just got to think differently and say, okay, yeah, I came home from work now and my role as father and husband, that's my role now. What do I got to do to to do this job? Well, I gotta, I gotta be attentive to my wife or to my kids.

Allan Hamernick: I gotta listen to what they have to say. I gotta help them with their homework. I gotta do this. I gotta make sure I take the, you know, there's all those little things that kind of help the relationships. Okay, that's. I'm in a different mode now. And I think if you approach things like that as look at the situation you're in and say, okay, what do I need to do now? And quite often it's the same things. It's be present, be mindful, be respectful. You know, be attentive, all those things. And if you're doing that all through your day, you're going to be pretty good at it, you know. And there's always going to be things where we're trauma occurs or there's emotional things that that happen. Right. So you have to acquire those skills or they can just overwhelm you. Right. If you don't do breathwork or you don't meditate or do all those things that you need to do to kind of keep yourself balanced, right? It's just like the high sense of self score. You're looking for some balance here. You're not looking for, you know, hope that's kind of what we're trying to do, is get people to have balance in their life and be successful in all the roles, not only really good at one. I think the key to success for people at the end of the day is their overall life. Holistically. That's really what's important.

[01:16:12] Suzie Price: And, you know, I always see Axiology as a very hopeful tool because no matter where someone scores, I mean, Hartmann, when he created that, it was about saying self-actualization. How can people become the best version of themselves? And here's a snapshot measurement. And that that there can be movement. Now when you're hiring, you're going to be more objective about the tool because it takes work to your point. You've got to be dedicated to change those numbers. If there's areas that are low, not everybody's going to be ready to do that. But in development, if you can see your scores as a coach or a consultant, you're very hopeful and not upset about any graph you see, because, you know, and Neil's just such a great example of that. You know, you have a conversation about what's going on. You know, there's something going on and it opens. You have a whole different kind of conversation with someone. And then that person now has the ability as a measurement to say, oh, well, this is really impacting me. I was feeling it, but now I can see it in black and white. And then they have a visual, you know, or a measurement to take. So it is you can tell that we are we all three of us are true believers in the tool and the power of it. You know, when you start to see it in your own life and you see it in the teams and the people you work with and and just I'm so glad that you all are doing the tools, what you're doing and the difference that you're making in the world around it. It truly is helping people wake up eager, which is what we're all about here.

Suzie Price: So that's amazing. Let's go into a little bit about your wake up eager strengths. We didn't do the full assessment, but we did a little recap. This is a segment we do every time we interview someone. And it's fun to do. We look at some of the strengths that you have based on your gas tank, which is the motivators and how you like to drive around which communication style. And it's fun for our listeners because now they've met you via the podcast, they've gotten to know you and observed or felt how you show up. And so here are some of the strengths, Al, that came up for you. And I'm just going to hit on some of them around. When you tie together, you're you're most interested in, according to the assessment, getting return on investment, keeping traditions and learning. That's what was the highest for you according to the assessment. And then you're how you like to drive around. Is your patient steady accurate. And you have this mix of being people and task focused. And so I have observed all of that with you. And then I'm just going to list a couple of my favorite three of the top strengths. Because there's a bunch of them you want you to comment on them. Take some methodical approach to implementing changes that will increase return on investment, steady communicator of structure and process, and the way it should be. Offers an objective perspective of how the goal can be attained within the established framework. Talk about how do those fit. I could see I've observed that in our communication today.

[01:19:07] Allan Hamernick: You know, they fit pretty well because I guess I'd always be kind of a cautious decision maker. I was always kind of fearful of making mistakes. Right? I mean, that's just kind of my my nature. I mean, in school, I wouldn't put my hand up, right. I would I just kind of wait till I made sure I knew the answer. So I've kind of been like that. So I've been kind of cautious decision maker all the time. So yeah, I try and make sure that to my own detriment. Sometimes I might be a little bit too picky or too slow to get to the answer right? So some of those. So they do ring ring true for me, I think in the way that I am, can't dispute any of it, but it does certainly line up with like Neil could say, I wasn't kind of an adventurous kind of guy. Pretty laid back and kind of cautious.

Suzie Price: Yeah. People probably describe you as loyal and consistent and lots of good things. So there's much more to say here. But in the interest of time, I won't hit it all. But there's so many strengths.

Allan Hamernick: But one of the guys I know that's the most loyal guy I know is Neil. I've known him for a long time, and I know that that's one of the. You know, if I was to describe Neil in a word, one, it would be loyal. Uh, he's a good friend, and he sticks with you through thick and thin.

Neil Smith: I want to tell you guys this because it hasn't come up, and this will make all your listeners feel very young. And they'll be happy to hear this when I say this, but Al Hamernick and Neil Smith, this is September of 2024 right now, and Al Hamernick and Neil Smith met in September of 1974. So this is 50 years this month since we met.

Suzie Price: How about that? How about that?

[01:20:45] Neil Smith: That's mind boggling. Yeah. Isn't it mind boggling?

Suzie Price: It's beautiful to have that history with people in your life outside of your family, I think. Right?

Neil Smith: Well, it's great to know that if, you know, if you get a call or the other guy is going to answer or he's going to call you back, or he's going to care or he's going to, how do you have people for 50 years that keep caring for 50 years? It's that's that's a tough one. It's if you're not married to them. And I can assure you we're not married to each other.

Suzie Price: Yeah. What a gift.

Neil Smith: We were at one time when we were defense partners. We were sort of married to each other.

Suzie Price: But apparently you were somewhere else while he had to do something else.

Neil Smith: Al's a loyal guy. I don't know why he's saying that about me. He's a picture of loyalty.

[01:21:33] Suzie Price: Yes, yes. So let's talk about Neil's strengths. According to the assessment, just some of them, because we're by no means hitting all of them. The gas tank, which you're most interested in doing five days a week, according to the assessment, leading, advancing being the spokesperson and knowledge. So you were the face or spokesperson for the team. You're out there thinking ahead. You said I'm a forward thinker and then your style is, according to the assessment, friendly, enthusiastic, consistent, diplomatic and optimistic. How you tend to drive around. So I can see you two are a great team. So you've got some similarities and then you have some different, different things. And that's why I really do think this is going to be all over the National Hockey League at some point. But some of the strengths here, an optimistic leader will bring energy and enthusiasm to the researching process, which we felt that today, and then volunteers his knowledge on many subjects.

[01:22:30] Neil Smith: Yeah, I guess that's a pretty good synopsis of me. I enjoy all those things, and I enjoy telling people things that they might not know, but they don't have to be great nuggets of knowledge. It could just be. Did you know how the monks got named? You know, have you ever thought of why we call this September? And actually that this should have been it's the ninth month, but it should have been the seventh month because that Sept stands for seven, and I love that kind of stuff. And so I try to have fun with the knowledge, and I love knowledge and gaining knowledge and then imparting that knowledge to other people because I think it's fun. It's just fun to be able to say, just like I did now with the 50 year thing, I thought that up in my head and I thought, geez, I should tell them, you know, this has been pretty amazing. 50 years. Yes, I say that those those strengths and and those things are accurate. And I enjoy the I think part of leadership, enjoying leadership is helping others is that's why you want to lead. You want to lead because you want to make life better for other people. And you feel that by putting yourself out there and saying, just get behind me, I'll help. It's a good, helpful tool. So, I mean, I've always been in the mindset of, and especially now in the last six, seven years, that I want to help people. I just want to help as much as I can. And that's why I'm so happy that you invited me to do this today Suzie.

Suzie Price: Yeah. Yes, yes. And that individualistic is that I'm willing to be out front. I'm willing to take risks. And what I was just thinking as you were talking, both of you, I was thinking, you know, the early adopters are going to be the people who love to learn and they're going to be probably individualistic, political and the motivators because they are like, I want to be in charge of my destiny and I want to help others. So if those two are tied together, it's like, I like, like that and they will relate to you as a spokesperson, you know, to get in the door. So that's an early adopter, I think less cautious and more like ready to just let's just try it. And I wonder how what the Kris with the league. I'm going to put a link to him.

Neil Smith: Kris Knoblauch at Edmonton Oilers.

[01:24:44] Suzie Price: Yeah probably an early adopter type personality okay. So great. Thank you for taking the assessment and being willing to share that. So people can kind of see what does it look like when someone scores in these different ways on the DISC and motivators. But let's talk about advice you would give your 25 year old self. What would you say?

Allan Hamernick: When I was looking at my results and my motivator scores, I was very low in harmony and balance, and so if I was giving myself advice, I'd say Allan. Although harmony and balance are or low priority in your life, they're likely a high priority in the lives of others that are closest to you. So wake up, you know? So I think as I look back at my life, I was too focused on work and to the point where staying late and doing things, working on projects started to become a habit. Right. And then I think I, I neglected some things I should have been doing, you know, around my family. You know, I think as I look back at things and say, you know what, probably I did a lot of stuff I didn't need to do. And in hindsight, had I recognized that earlier, I think it would have been like my, you know, I'm married with my high school sweetheart here for, you know, we're married to 47 years, so I guess it hasn't been that bad for her, but I'm sure there were periods of time where I wasn't fulfilling my role. Maybe as a husband and father as as well as I should have been. Right? Because I was I was just focused on work and thinking, geez, I had to do that. And that was kind of my background. I came up from a, you know, in a mining town. Everybody had to work hard, right? That was it. But, you know, my daughter said to me one day, I forget what I call it, just going to college. She said, dad, I never want to be like you. All you do is work. It also kind of hit me pretty hard, right? So I said, yeah, yeah, can't go back now. But yeah. So advice for me. So if I had that earlier and had done this earlier and understood it, you know, the difference between doing it is seeing the results and understanding it. I say, you know what? There's more to life than just work, right? You have to do well if you're not happy till you do all the things well, you know, so that's kind of advice I'd give myself is to pay more attention or have done this earlier. That would have been life is to think about more so what others I think than than I, than I did well.

Suzie Price: And what you're being a great example of is, you know, in the motivators, what you're most interested in is getting results and, and the learning and making sure it's right and all of that. And so what we can all do is overdo that. That's an example of we just overdo it because we like it so much and we value it. And what, you know, what you scored is least interested is the harmony and balance the aesthetic. And so for all of us, look at your motivators and see what you scored as number six. And it doesn't mean you want to spend all your time there. But that could be a blind spot sometimes.

Allan Hamernick: Yeah, that's exactly what it was, a blind spot.

[01:27:33] Suzie Price: Overdue, you know. And so and so having people in your life that do that, it's like a you can create a fuller life if you if you don't shun that away but say, okay, I'm going to appreciate that. Yeah. So that's very cool. How about you Neil? What advice would you give your 25 year old self?

Neil Smith: I would say that have more confidence and realize what your strengths are and what they're not, and take advantage of your personal strengths and just work on that to be successful based upon your own personal strengths. I think it wasn't until I was in my early 30s that I realized what my own personal strengths were at that particular time and what they weren't. And I was trying to be something that I didn't have the strength to be. Early in my post college life, and I should have just gone with my strengths. And so we all grow up in a in a different way that sort of shapes our personality. And for me, my father died when I was ten. You know, my mother raised me. She was a hockey player. I wanted to be a hockey player. I did everything I could to be a hockey player, but I really never had confidence in Neil until I realized my real strength was in my head and not in my physical body. It was more in my intellectual side, and that I should let the other guys be the players, and I'll be the manager. And I realize that at a certain point. So I probably would have told my 25 year old self like, look, just have confidence you're as smart or smarter than anybody out there, so just know that you're not as good physically as everybody else out there. So understand that and take advantage of your strengths.

Suzie Price: Yes. And you know, Gallup Organization does these surveys every year or studies. And they say three out of four people surveyed do not know what their strengths are. So line four people up, three of them are not going to know what their strengths are. So such a key point.

Allan Hamernick: Well, one of the things I was going to say is, uh, when we did, uh, Neil's uh, assessment the last time when he took yours just for this broadcast, and we compared it to the 20, you know, the one we took earlier in the year. Yeah. Uh, the results were identical. I couldn't tell which one. Which one was which. I had to look at the dates. So his his responses were exactly the same as they were, which was the same as when he took it back then. So that was interesting as well was that. But, uh, so I mentioned that consistency in terms of his, uh, his responses there.

Suzie Price: Yeah yeah yeah. Sometimes the motivators don't change very much. They may reorder a little bit, but uh, mostly that's what I see. But not always. We're so complex, all kinds of things happen. Okay, so last few questions here. If you could put a billboard anywhere to influence others, where would you put it and what would you say?

[01:30:28] Allan Hamernick: Well, I just the one I put up is say, uh, character is your legacy, uh, prioritize it, continually work on it, do the work. It's kind of what again, to the self-development thing is to start early. Right. And where I put, I put maybe put it in the electronic billboard of Yankee Stadium or something, I don't know.

 Suzie Price: I like that, yes.

[01:30:50] Allan Hamernick: Yes, I can see that. Or behind home plate. Right. Everybody would see it and say, okay, make time for me and personal development. Something along along those lines I think would be something just to get people to think. You got to spend time on yourself and, and the earlier you started these things, I think the more benefits you're going to get later on in life.

Suzie Price: Yeah. Your character is your legacy. And I'm seeing I was, as you were saying, that I was like, huh? I can see CoreFive analytics is sponsoring an ad at the next big hockey game. There's the banner or the electronic billboard. Your character is your legacy. Yes. That is wonderful. What would you say, Neil?

Neil Smith: Mine would be live in the moment. And when I say that and I put it on the billboard, I would try to say, this is not just Eckhart Tolle that's saying this. This is really what you need to do if you want to try to get through life as happy as possible, try not to keep going back to what you didn't do right yesterday and and don't keep going forward to what you think you better do better tomorrow. Just live right now and in this moment and enjoy this moment. You don't know how many you have going forward and you can't change anything that you've already done so and you don't know how many more you're going to have. But you do know you have this one right now. So, you know, live this one.

Suzie Price: Yeah. Focus on now I love that. Love it. Boy, you are both wise and inspirational and so thankful that you've been on the podcast today. I want to close with key takeaways. We've had so many and so think about what you would say. One last bit of advice that you'd like. Every leader or hockey player or hockey manager or anybody listening. Advice that you'd like them to take away from our discussion today. Al, let me just use your nickname Hammer. Hammer. I haven't used it. Hammer, what would you say?

Allan Hamernick: I say leaders need coaching. Coaches need coaching. Right. I think that's kind of where when you look at Neil could probably tell you about that. What's the background of most NHL coaches? Well they just kind of come up and they're not well suited to challenges. The full challenges that a culture leader has in an organization, where are they going to get those skills? So I think that people need leaders need coaching, coaches need coaching. And I think that's where you're seeing maybe more mentors now. Are people looking are using external resources to help them, guide them through the things they navigate every day. Nobody can be good at everything. So I think it's that part of that life's continuous learning spectrum, right? You've just got to keep going or you just you'll just fall behind. Yeah.

Suzie Price: And don't go it alone. You know, get people like you and like me and many of our colleagues to support these. Be your support team. And the support team changes too. I mean, I have a support team and it's changed over the years, hasn't yours. You know. And so, you know, whatever you're working on, find a coach for that piece that's appropriate for now and then, you know, allow that. So I love that leaders need coaching. Coaches need coaching. Yes. Neil. What would you say? Last bit of advice.

Neil Smith: Never stop seeking knowledge. Keep trying to keep learning. Keep trying to improve your knowledge base. You'll never know everything, but you should try. Just, just just keep seeking knowledge and keep being proud of yourself. Of the knowledge that you have and the knowledge that you gain is something to really be proud of.

[01:34:32] Suzie Price: Yes, yes, it's kind of the back to your point about stay present and meanwhile continue to expand and appreciate what you have. That's wonderful. So in the show notes, we will put a link to CoreFive analytics. We're going to put a link to wrap around podcast and anything else you'd like to say about how they can reach you. We'll also put your LinkedIn profiles links there. Anything else you want to say about anybody reaching out to you or the best way to contact you?

Neil Smith: Contact me at Neil@NHLwraparound.com. I welcome anybody to reach out. It's again it's Neil@NHLwraparound.com.

Suzie Price: If you don't follow hockey or you do follow hockey go look at the podcast because it's very well done. Very great production. And you I can see you and your co-host. I mean you have you are experts and it's very interesting to watch. Yeah. That that episode you sent me with Wayne Gretzky, that's the one hockey player everybody knows. And I happen to know who he is. Yeah, I used to work out with his wife. So anyway, so I know who he is. But anyway, so Neil@NHLwraparound.com. Correct. Okay, great. How about you, Al?

Allan Hamernick: You can reach me at Allan@corefiveanalytics.com. Or you could check our website out at CoreFiveanalytics.com.

[01:36:00] Suzie Price: Thank you both. It's been an honor to spend great time with you. Thank you for sharing what you're doing and for being out in the world, making it a better place.

Neil Smith: Thank you. Suzie.

Allan Hamernick: Yeah, thanks for having us, Suzie. It was great.

[01:36:13] Suzie Price: All right. The show notes for everything we talked about and references on how to contact them or learn more about. The assessment is at pricelessprofessional.com/nhl for National Hockey League. Pricelessprofessional.com/nhl. So fascinating peek into the world of sports and the NHL right. What you get to see what it's like to be a talent scout. And if you hire too, you are also a talent scout. And I'm hoping you can see that this data can help you reduce the risk. That's what we talk about all the time with our clients, and that's what they're doing with their work, and it's exciting to see where they're going to take it there. A good, dynamic duo with their love and passion for NHL and their individual strengths. I particularly loved the Wake Up Eager strength segment because they are a great team, but yet you could see they have a very different drivers and different style, but that's the power of understanding the differences of how you can both work them, work them and use them to success. So I loved how passionate Al is around the power of the tools, and he constantly was reminding us the importance and value of self-awareness and self-mastery, and how that ties to us building character. So think about that. When you think about your assessment results. You know how this helps me as I become more aware of myself and others, build character, be a better version of myself.

Suzie Price: I love the examples of the players we talked about in the Axiology assessment, and you'll see that in our other podcast we talk about we have one mind and that one mind thinks in two worlds the world view and the self view. And then in each world we have three focus areas how we think, feel and be. And so that one example was about how a lot of the thinking part, the systems judgment, you know, was low on that one player and how the self view, the sense of self was low and all of those things. Remember, we can grow those. But when we are hiring, we think very objectively about what the scale is because we're trying to decide if they're worth the risk. So if somebody has lower scores in those areas, there could be more risk. But if they already are a player on your team, we're going to still use the objective data. But now we are going to say, okay, how can we help them develop. So we want to reduce the risk when we're hiring, once they're on board. And if the player is losing their hat every time something comes up and is very defensive and then we notice sense of self is low and systems judgment is low, then we try to have that conversation around how that can be developed and helping them become the best version of themselves.

Suzie Price: I see the science of Axiology as a super hopeful tool, because if you're trying to help someone grow and get the most and you you heard it, you heard it from Neil as he talked about the growth that he had had from 2016. I think that was the year to 2024. You know, the impact that he had by seeing, hey, I want to be stronger in these areas. And having done so, the energy and the more happiness he is feeling. So this is about helping people. And the Axiology tool helps a team make good talent scout decisions and then helps the individual when they're on the team grow because it really pinpoints where those opportunities are. So I love the last reminders at the end. Leaders need coaching and coaches need coaching. So in other words, we all can benefit from growth and development and don't stop growing. They are so aligned in that way. Neil also talked about, you know, the fish rots from the head down, which is I don't know if I've heard that before, but I really like that because it just says, okay, the leader needs to keep learning and leaders need coaching and coaches need coaching. So if you're a leader and you're not, you don't have anybody supporting you. Consider reaching out to Al, reaching out to us, or other people in your world that might be most helpful to you. Now think about what you want to be stronger in. Or maybe it's time to do a measurement on your self-awareness. Reach out and one of us can help you. Or maybe it's something else that's really important that you already know. You don't have to go it alone. There's so many people who have been officially or unofficially mentors and coaches for me in my life, personally and professionally, and just don't shy away from that because you don't have to do it alone. And so I really encourage you on that. I like how Al talks about how the axiology part we were talking about earlier is, you know, the deepest, most complete piece because it does really reveal where we are. And that's the tool that I think about as being so hopeful, because if I can know where I am, I know where I need to grow or where I can focus to accelerate the growth and grow my character, grow my strength, grow my capabilities, grow my happiness, grow my wake up eager life. So thanks for tuning in. I want to mention that we have show notes for today will again be at pricelessprofessional.com/nhl. But also we have a new TriMetrix University podcast page. So if you love TriMetrix and you'd like to see all the podcasts related to TriMetrix, this one will be in there as well. But we've got some real good training tools in there and a lot of good discussion with others. So if you want to see that, go to pricelessprofessional.com/triMetrixuniversitypodcasts, priceless professional.com/triMetrixuniversitypodcasts. And you'll see all the latest episodes. And I think we're at 32 or 33 episodes related to that. We have 120 episodes that you can go check out at WakeUpEagerworkforce.com. You'll see the latest and then a directory there. Lastly, I want to mention that we do do TriMetrix training. We can do a basic just to get somebody started one hour, two hours. Whatever you need or want are willing to do. We've got summary sheets and things like that that can empower you to use the tool. We have deeper dive training and then we have certification training. So if there's anything we can help you with, reach out to me suzie@pricelessprofessional.com. Thanks for tuning in. I'm recording another episode this week. It's going to be interesting as well and I can't wait to share it with you. Take care and reach out to us if you have any questions or suggestions, and if you'd like to leave us a review, you can do that on Apple or Spotify. It helps us and we would love to know and see a review from you on there, and we'll talk to you soon. Take care.

[01:43:15] Intro/Outro: This episode of the Wake Up Eager Workforce podcast was brought to you by Priceless professional Development. Thank you for tuning in. If you enjoyed today's show, head over to priceless professional.com to gain access to more professional development resources.