Wake Up Eager Workforce 
Episode 114 Transcript

[00:00:00] Suzie Price: Today I'm talking with licensed professional counselor Art Ellis, PhD. You're going to want to tune in today if you love to learn about others journeys. If you want to feel more hope about the world, if you're curious about the idea that we can measure how we think, feel, and make decisions. If you want to know more about Axiology and try metrics. If you like being inspired by others, you're going to learn more about Robert Hartman's story of escaping Hitler and using the trauma of watching Hitler organize evil, and taking that and turning it into creation of a structure that organizes good, which is what Axiology is. There's a lot to unpack here. You don't have to be a therapist or a psychologist or theoretical to enjoy this episode, but you're going to learn a lot more about this journey, and we're going to got a lot to share. And it's all very good. So I know you're going to feel something and learn something from this conversation, and I cannot wait to share it with you. Michael. Hit it.

[00:00:59] Intro: Welcome to the Wake Up Eager Workforce podcast, a show designed for leaders, trainers and consultants who are responsible for employee selection and professional development. Each episode is packed full with insider tips, best practices, expert interviews and inspiration. Please welcome the host who is helping leaders, trainers and consultants everywhere Suzie Price.

[00:01:25] Suzie Price: Hi there. This is Suzie Price and I'm back with you today on the Wake Up Eager Workforce podcast, where we cover everything related to helping you and the employees in your organizations. Build a high commitment, low drama, wake up eager workforce. Hence the name of the podcast, The Wake Up Eager Workforce Podcast. Bottom line we help leaders and organizations make good decisions about their people. We want to help you create people who are in the right roles and have the right opportunities, and get to be their best and bring their best to the work environment. And so today's episode is great because it covers what we do in our work, which is helping you make better decisions. It's episode number 114 and the title is making Better Decisions for a better World. How do we use the understanding of values and the science of axiology to make better decisions? We use that in tri metrics, often with making hiring decisions. So you're getting the right fit, and you're understanding how people think and whether it matches what is most needed on the job. And then we're using it when we're helping with development and helping people be all that they can be. And what we're talking about today relates to everything that is used in the work we do. So I'm super excited about it. The tracker link for today's conversation is at priceless professional.com/better decisions.

[00:02:50] Suzie Price: Here's some of the things we talk about. The legacy of Doctor Hartman. You'll find out who he is. And we'll talk about this idea of passing on wisdom and knowledge for future generations and how important that is. And we're going to unlock the power of practical axiology, which is making it easier to understand what it is. Some of art's explanations are amazing. He also talks about his journey of getting the biography or autobiography of Doctor Hartman printed. And it's a very interesting journey and I think you'll enjoy hearing about it. We talk about creating a better society and the path to equality and justice. We talk about the power of unlocking intrinsic values, and you'll learn more about what intrinsic is, and you'll learn about Hartman's hierarchy of value and how we can make better decisions. And then lastly, we talk about positivity and how influencing others so much goodness. In this episode, let me tell you about art background. He's a licensed professional counselor who's been a clinician since 1971. He holds degrees in psychology and rehabilitation counseling from the University of Tennessee and has a doctorate from LaSalle University. He is also a certified master addictions therapist and a diplomate of the American Psychotherapy Association. As a therapist, he was in the Psychology Service of the Veterans Administration, which is amazing. Helping our vets. That's just wonderful work.

[00:04:18] Suzie Price: And he studied formal axiology under Hartman, Robert S Hartman, and he Hartman personally trained him in the use of the Hartman Value Profile, which is the acumen assessment in metrics. Art has been active on the Robert S Hartman Institute since its formation. He has served on the board of Directors and has been the Chair Emeritus of the Wisdom Council, and is now a member of the Wisdom Council. He's currently a member of the Society of Industrial and Organizational Psychology, International Coaching Federation, and Association for Talent Development, and he is a super awesome person. The way I met him was my involvement in the Hartman Institute. If you go to Hartman Institute org, you'll see a lot of good information in there about this group. I did a previous podcast interview with Art and we go into some other details there. If you're interested in it, go to the show notes at priceless professional.com/better decisions and you'll see a link to the episode that I did with Art previously. So this is new material, new information. But they go together nicely. So again, the show notes for today is priceless. Professional.com/better decisions. And it's all lowercase in one word. All right let's go to our episode now. Art. Thank you for being on the podcast again today. It's wonderful to see you and to be with you this morning.

[00:05:45] Art Ellis: It's great to be here. Thank you Susie.

[00:05:47] Suzie Price: We appreciate you. And it was great to see you at the recent conference. And it's awesome to talk today about freedom to live, about the book and the influence that you have had on the book. But let's start with the book. First. Tell people what is the book freedom to live. What's it about? Who was Robert Hartman? Just kind of lay some groundwork for us.

[00:06:10] Art Ellis: Freedom to live was a manuscript which, uh, Doctor Hartman wrote when he was involved with a seminar, a series of seminars with Nationwide Insurance Company. And at the time he lived in Ohio and was teaching at the university in Ohio and one of the vice presidents at Nationwide. Harry Culbreath had, uh, encountered him and taken some courses. I think he may have been teaching some management and philosophy courses and that sort of thing, and was just really taken with Doctor Hartman as he was able to influence people in that way, and was really taken with his ideas and arranged for him to do seminars with the top management people in Nationwide Insurance, which was a couple of hundred people.

[00:07:06] Suzie Price: And so here was this. It was 1960s.

[00:07:10] Art Ellis: 1962 and 63, as I recall. So he wrote this or possibly had written some of it before, but anyway, pulled it all together for the people who were participating in these seminars as kind of an introduction to who he was, who he was coming to do these seminars and where he had come from, but also to give them something to take away from the sessions. And so these went on for several months, the seminars, uh, once a month, I think, uh, I don't remember the schedule exactly. So that was the purpose of it being written. So it's a self generated kind of autobiography that told of his background growing up in Germany prior to the Nazi time. He was born in 1910, and so but he grew up then, with the influence of World War One occurring, and then the aftermath of that leading up to World War two. So he experienced the rise of Nazism and Hitler. And so he describes that in this book and then describes his journey in trying to counter that kind of influence in the world. He described it, you know, as many times it's quoted, I saw Hitler organized evil. What can I do to organize? Good. So that was his burning question. And he did not start out being a philosopher. He escaped Germany and survived by being a photographer, actually for Disney.

[00:08:59] Suzie Price: Right. Didn't he do it for Disney? Was he photography? He didn't.

[00:09:02] Art Ellis: He didn't do photography. So much for Disney. He did it independently and sold photographs to newspapers and magazines while he was trying to survive. And then he got directed to a job at Disney. Disney to open up, uh, some contacts in Scandinavia. And he got that job. And from that job, then, you know, he was able he lived in Scandinavia at the time. And from there then he and his wife Rita, that he married in this period of time, had an opportunity to, to get get out of there when things got bad and they, they were given an opportunity to come to the States. And then Disney assigned him and he knew Walt Disney and had lots of interaction with Walt Disney. And he was given the assignment then of Disney in Latin America and ended up down in Mexico doing things with Disney. But all the time the burning question was, this is a good life, but it's not really promoting what I think my calling in life really is. And that's to pursue this question of of good. So he ended up giving that up. Going back to the States, did become a citizen here and went to university and got a PhD in philosophy prior to that, by the way, he had gone to university in Europe and he had a law degree. He had studied mathematics. He had he was what people, what they call them. Now a polymath, he had just studied everything, and he had been influenced by some of the great minds in the university.

[00:10:39] Art Ellis: At the time, and one of them was Husserl, and whose philosophy he went back to when he was constructing his formal axiology. So from the introduction of himself, the other thing that freedom to live includes is, you know, sort of the rudimentary ideas of what formal axiology is about axiology meaning from the Greek, the study of values. The formal part is the part that Hartman emphasizes, and that this is Hartman's axiology the formal part, making it into some kind of a system in which people can apply it systematically to their lives. Now, you know, that's the s part that we talk about. So his discovery or what led him to be able to develop this was the development and the understanding which no one had articulated in the same way that he was able to do what good is people have been talking about good since the time of Aristotle, and in this volume right here called The Knowledge of Good, which is, uh, a book that Rim Edwards and I edited was a manuscript of Hartman's. And he goes back to the very beginning when and everybody who ever said anything about good in the history of philosophy, he addresses him here and talks about what they said and why it did not develop into the kind of, uh, formalism that he was pursuing, why there were too many holes in the way that they stated it, and how it was just a vague concept. And rather than the specific kind of concept that he was trying to develop.

[00:12:35] Art Ellis: So he came up with the idea of good, the meaning of good of a thing is that it is what it is supposed to be. And in philosophical terminology, or in fact, mathematical terminology, it means it has all of the properties that it is supposed to have. If it is the best thing it can be, it has all of them. And so if properties are missing or taken away, then it diminishes the amount of good. So then you can get kind of a scale. You've got the very very best. And then you know if it's missing some things, you know, you go down the scale until you get to something. The thing that you may still have is very poor. And that's like going from an excellent automobile down to when it is a scrap heap in the in the junkyard, you know, you've gone the full gamut of what a good car might be described as and then developed along with that axiom value. That's what that is called. And this is, you know, what he introduces us to in this little volume of freedom to live. And then the other really salient part from having that definition is his development of the concept of the hierarchy of good, the hierarchy of values. And this has to do with the dimensions of values in as a separate thing from the axiom. You know, it's another group of axioms. He says that our lives and everything in our lives have three dimensions the systemic dimension, which is all of the rules and kinds of rigid kinds of thinking, and all of the kinds of ideas and the theories and all of that sort of stuff falls into the systemic dimension.

[00:14:35] Art Ellis: And it is a dimension that is called it's kind of yes or no. It either is or it isn't. And my example for that is one that he often uses the example of a circle. Well, where can you find a circle? You can only find a perfect circle in your head. You can write down what a perfect circle is. You know, it is a geometric figure which is equidistant. Its perimeter, its perimeter is equidistant from the center. So we have an exact definition of it, but in reality it doesn't exist anywhere. The only thing that only exists in our mind and our capacity to define it in that way, and that's what system is all about, is being able. So everything else we can compare to that perfection there. But we can't really find a perfect circle anywhere because. Cause one can't be produced. That exactly fits that definition. You can get awfully close. And, you know, if you're if you're doing things in a school room and you draw a circle on a whiteboard, you know you've got a representation of a circle, but it sure doesn't exactly fit that definition. But we all know what that is. You know, we can transpose from that perfection to being to having something we can work with.

[00:16:07] Suzie Price: It's the standard.

[00:16:09] Art Ellis: It's the standard. And that's that's what system gives us. It's something to to measure other things against. So then that's one dimension. The second dimension then. And that one is the what would be called the least friction properties because it is so specific. Now you would you know, in terms that he used it was called finite. And then the next dimension is the extrinsic. And the extrinsic dimension is the world we live in and around us. And everything that we use from the systemic dimension, we actually use it in the extrinsic dimension and we use it in its imperfection. You know, like we use airline schedules and they look beautiful, you know? Right. They're they're printed and it's, it's they got it down to the minute. And that's not how it works at all. You get there and the flights are delayed and cancelled and this, that and the other. But I mean on paper they are perfect. But in reality we have to have that. But in reality it doesn't work out like that. Even the Swiss train schedules are sometimes a few minutes late, as good as they are. So, you know, we we take that systemic part and we put it into the extrinsic and make it work in our lives.

[00:17:32] Art Ellis: But the extrinsic is all of the things around us. It's also all of the practical matters that we deal with. It's all of our social life and interaction and how we define ourselves in the world around us and how we enjoy, uh, our iPads and our computers and our Rolltop desk, which is behind my my iPad that I'm looking at right here, you know, and all all of those things that are within our world that we can handle and deal with and make practical decisions about. It's it's the dimension of practicality. And in the mathematical terms, it's called denumerable or infinite. Because theoretically, you know, these things from the philosophical and mathematical point of view can have as many properties as they can always have one more property. So it's called innumerably infinite. It can always be in plus one. And my example of this is I look out my window and I live on 75 acres, and I have, I don't know how many trees and I have how many billions of leaves, and it seems like an infinite number to me, but it isn't. It's a closed system. It's just that I could not possibly ever count them.

[00:18:52] Art Ellis: It's not really countable. It's only countable. Back to the system. When we think about dealing with it as a closed system. And we've got X plus one, we've always got it's countable, but it's not practically countable because of how many grains of sand are there in the world at any one minute. Well, the world is a closed system, and if we just take an instant in time, there's only X number, but we cannot possibly ever count that. Yeah. Then we have the most rich dimension, which is called intrinsic Nick. And it is all of the things in life which give us our real depth of meaning. They are all of the things about creativity and empathy and interaction and love and all of those things that are it's called non denumerable, infinite in the language that's used. And it just means that, you know, they really don't have a count count. You can't measure it in the same way that you can measure the things in the extrinsic, you know, do you, you say, well, you know, I love my, my husband X yesterday but today I love him X plus one. No that doesn't work.

[00:20:14] Suzie Price: Yeah it's in your heart.

[00:20:16] Art Ellis: It doesn't quite work that same way. So yeah it's the part that has to do with the heart and the and the spirit of our being. So in this book he describes that and introduces us to that and then goes on and talks about in the later chapters how to apply this kind of thinking to one's life and why that is important. And then he constantly is drawing on his experiences with the craziness that went on during World War two, and the craziness of war and the craziest ness of the nuclear age. And he would be interested in the craziness of our age. And currently.

[00:21:04] Suzie Price: Oh yes.

[00:21:05] Art Ellis: But he goes on to talk about all these things and gives some just wonderful guidelines for life. So that's what he is about and what Freedom to Live is about. And kind of a nutshell, what did I leave out?

[00:21:19] Suzie Price: It's excellent. And, you know, I was when I was going back and reading the book, I've probably read Freedom to Live, I don't know, ten times. And every time I read it, I was like, gosh, have I read this? Ever read this part? You know, there's so, so rich. Talk about infinite is so much rich insight. And I guess I'm always at a new place when I read it again.

[00:21:40] Art Ellis: One of the keys is that, you know, we're constantly changing our life experiences and the way we think are constantly changing. So going back and visiting these rich things again gives us a new kind of insight.

[00:21:55] Suzie Price: Yeah. And me not being a philosopher, I'm sure I could read knowledge of good and the structure of value, but I don't feel pulled towards that so much to try to read it and understand.

[00:22:07] Art Ellis: The serious scholars. Yeah. So not.

[00:22:10] Suzie Price: That.

[00:22:11] Art Ellis: Our, uh, formal axiology in our institute, uh, founders of our institute, David Mefford and, uh, John Davis and the others were wise enough to entitle that the Robert S Hartman Institute for Formal and Applied Axiology. So we've got these two things. The application part is the part, you know, that people take out into the world and make work. The formal part is important, and it's important that we do some more development in that. But that is not in any way should keep the application from, you know, just taking it out into the world and making it work with what we already know. You know, that's what physicists do. They they take imperfect theories, and the practical physicists take those imperfect theories and put them to work and create things like iPads or the possible.

[00:23:11] Suzie Price: Yes, yes, they both matter. And I think the institute is doing a good job of having a good balance of programs and and trying. It's a tricky thing as an organization to help the people who are the scholars get what they need and then help the practical, applied people get what they need. You know, it's always trying to strike a balance. But I loved that. As you went through the systemic, extrinsic and intrinsic, one of the things that I had not noticed before, and it's in the book Freedom to Live from REM Edwards opening of the book. And he says that more than other philosophers, Hartman helped me understand and appreciate the intrinsic value of individual persons, of unique centers of conscious experience and activity. Other philosophers have usually found intrinsic value only in universal, repeatable qualities like pleasure, knowledge, virtue, law, creativity, but not an individual. So that is, you know, when you talk about intrinsic and I think that's where people's hearts get touched through Hartman's work is this understanding of intrinsic and the value of it. And I think that's one of the differentiators. Not only does he talk about how we think and help us understand the ordering principle for our lives, but then he talks about the richness of intrinsic and helps us remember something. And it apparently, before he started talking about it the way he did back in the 1960s, that was not a common practice.

[00:24:35] Art Ellis: No, it was not. And, you know, the terms intrinsic values is certainly not something he invented. And it had been discussed before, but never in the way that he talked about. He did.

[00:24:45] Suzie Price: It. Yes, yes. You know, his experiences informed that too. You know, it's like, as you said, his burning purpose was to inform what is good. And how do I counter the evil. And so that created such a focus on the intrinsic.

[00:25:00] Art Ellis: In freedom to live. Also, he talks a lot about himself, and he talks about the fact that that his philosophy taught him the relative unimportance of his philosophy.

[00:25:13] Suzie Price: Oh, say more about that. Say more about well.

[00:25:17] Art Ellis: Basically, his reader, his wife was always on to him about about being so rigid, so Germanic. And at some point he realized, you know, she's right. I need to loosen up. I need to not be so structured. It's I'm too s too much, too systemic.

[00:25:41] Suzie Price: I'm too what's black and white? What's right is wrong, you know, and he and you read it throughout the book and you hear about it through all the stories I've through, through talking to you all over the years and learning from you who knew him, that he was very personable and very much loved and very much humorous and gave love. He lived what he's talking about in this book. He learned to live it.

[00:26:04] Art Ellis: Yes he did. He learned to live it. And he gives examples in the book which will probably touch on a little later of, you know, how what he saw as, uh, important elements in a person coming to develop their own sense of this. Now, there are many people in the world who practice what we've just talked about without ever knowing what they're doing. You know, they are naturals at understanding that there is a hierarchy of values in life and they live it out. But what we have to offer is for people who are not naturals, a way to to learn about their own living and to be able to incorporate these kinds of this kind of thinking in their own life so that they are. Able to order the values in their life better, to make their being better and make better decisions, and then to pass that on to others as well. So, you know, that's what I've always called the informal axiology. And there's a passage that if we have time, I want to read you. It was an experience that he had with a student at MIT, and it's on page 69, in the second edition of Freedom to Live. And he, as he, as he seemed to always do, had given this group of students at MIT the heart of whatever the current version of the Hartman value profile was that he was working with at that time and had, of course, given them feedback. And this particular student had had a lot of conflict with his family. And he went back home at Christmas after having this conversation and just had, you know, what we call an aha experience, a transforming experience.

[00:27:53] Art Ellis: Uh, thinking about this and went back and, and was able to to make a lot of resolutions, resolve a lot of things with this family. And Hartman says in conclusion of that discussion, it should be possible for every one of us to use value science in our own lives without calculus, without complicated formula, we need only learn how to apply the yardstick of intrinsic value to life around us and within us. And that's what I've always called informal Axiology my flippant terme to think that this is what we would really like to have happen. Yes, we need the theoretical. We need to refine the science. We need to make sure the science is sound so that it endures the test of time. And what Hartman wanted it to be was, you know, just like physics, he wanted the branch of philosophy of Axiology to develop into a science that was as sound and functional as physics and chemistry, you know, just in a different way on the social side of things, social sciences side. And so that was his objective. But, you know, more of a practicing or practical kind of thing that we'd like to see happen in our world, in our society and our world is people actually just using this every day in their lives, making better decisions, having better interactions. And, you know, that is bound to lead to our world, make our world a better place. If we've got lots of people influencing others and making better decisions all the time, surely we can make more progress. And in a way.

[00:29:47] Suzie Price: That practically shows up is you think about. So I'm thinking about the Nationwide leaders, and I'm thinking about leaders today, and it's remembering, okay, so systemic is important. I need the rules, but I don't need to make people wrong because I've got the rule. It's not all black and white. I'm not going to be rigid about the rules and then the action. Yes, I've got to get things done and that matters. And so I'm going to do all the right things. But when I'm talking with someone, I'm going to turn off my phone or I'm going to ask about their family or I'm going to tune into them, I'm going to make them a priority. If I'm a sales person, I'm going to care more, not just in words, because not in our actions, but I'm going to care more about what they need than what I'm trying to sell them. You know? And you think about Hartman. You know, he was so brilliant and he knew so many things. He was so well traveled and he experienced so much. But it sounds like he always put all of his knowledge. I mean, it was there and he was ready to share it. Of course, that was such a priority, but the person in front of him mattered more than the knowledge. Yeah. So it's just that statement. And one of the things that he said in the book was the key to run away with all the sales is to live spiritually. So all the sales trophies, that's what it is. And you can think about all the leadership trophies, all the be a better sister trophies, be a better wife trophies. You know, all of that. I'm putting in words there is to live spiritually in the intrinsic, to develop and fulfill our inner yearning to achieve self awareness by these four rules. Know thyself. Choose thyself. Create thyself. Give of thyself.

[00:31:26] Art Ellis: Yes, and you know, that's part of the wonderful thing that he shared with us just in a few sentences there. And, you know, it's just jewel of knowledge and wisdom that's passed on right there. And I think you have to have some grounding in a way to really appreciate this little volume that Cliff and Katherine put together, wit and wisdom. And the more that you know. All about formal axiology and about Hartman. Then the greater depth every one of these little statements in this book takes on. But even if you don't have any of that, you know, just reading through it, it still has great richness. But as you know, you change your position. One changes one's position, one's perspective. Then, you know, things gain more and more depth at times. Yeah. So that book.

[00:32:23] Suzie Price: With some are quotes that Art and his wife helped sponsor get published. And it's a beautiful book. But even people who are listening right now, there'll be a link to it in the show notes is if they just remember what we just talked about, about how you so beautifully outlined what systemic, extrinsic and intrinsic is. And then they read that book and there's little quotes about about the different factors or dimensions. It's just another way to ingrain the information. So it's clear for us in the understanding of our own life and value, and to think in this way to to look at things around price. I did an interview with him recently and he talked about, he said, because I know Axiology and I know these three dimensions, I could put a talk together in 15 minutes on any topic. And I thought, well, that's so interesting because it's true. Because if you think about, okay, what's the structure, what are the actions? And now the I fulfill all three dimensions, you know, it's all life. It's all of life.

[00:33:24] Art Ellis: It's everywhere. Yeah.

[00:33:26] Suzie Price: So when you think about the executive at Nationwide who hired Hartman to come in and speak to his leaders and that that a leader was obviously into philosophy because he'd taken classes through Hartman, do you feel like that's what he was getting at or that's what he wanted his leaders to know in the 1960s understand this?

[00:33:45] Art Ellis: And yes, I think that's exactly what he wanted them to know. And it had an influence, as Cliff has discovered, in contacting some people from Nationwide and that they don't remember Hartman at this point at all. Yeah. But their archivist discovered that their mission statements still reflect the approach that they took at that time after having worked with Hartman. So Hartman had an influence over the way that they made their mission statements back in the 60s, which has become ingrained in the way that they want to run their company all through these years, even though his name is is no longer in their minds. And everyone who you know was connected with that's gone by now, you know, his influence is still there. And a person who has written a couple of articles in the journal who's name was Peter Kisseloff Clift, that's a hyphenated name. He was a researcher, a writer. He wrote two articles that were published in our journal, 1 in 2018, 1 in 2021 about. He had researched Hartman's time at MIT and the influence that he had there. And then what came out of that at the time was a book that's published called The Abraham Maslow Published New Knowledge and Human Values, which was the transcripts of some of the presentations by the high powered people at the time that Maslow had pulled together because they were so concerned about nuclear war, and so that this was a movement toward exploring that in peace. And Hartman made a presentation about formal axiology at that point. And and it is published in that book. But he does a wonderful job of talking about how this interact ation, he believes, is still going on, that the influence that he had among these people is still being carried through. So if you haven't gone back and read those articles, they're worth looking at.

[00:36:11] Suzie Price: I'm going to put links to that in the show notes, at least, so that people can find the Hartman Institute and find the journals, and they can either purchase them individually or become a member, which is would be better. You get access to all the journals if you're a member. So fascinating. And I have not read those. You know what it keeps bringing me back to is this power of the intrinsic, and that is that because Hartman touched so many hearts, he's still being spoken about today. And it wasn't just his knowledge that's touched people, and it was correct knowledge that inspired people, but he inspired people. You know, his story, what he came out of, what he created. I mean, he inspired everyone who he met. And they're still talking about him today. And because you all. Still talk about him. We've learned about him. And so it's just once again, just an at MIT, I think I heard that students used to follow him around the campus.

[00:37:04] Art Ellis: I wouldn't be surprised.

[00:37:06] Suzie Price: And want to talk to him, you know, so and just the impact that he had. So talk a little bit about how who Hartman was to you.

[00:37:14] Art Ellis: Well, Hartman was just this. For a young graduate undergraduate student, you know, it was almost this overpowering personality, but he just became so much a mentor. And I just, you know, could just couldn't get enough of learning about formal axiology. So I took courses. I was not a philosophy student. I was a psychology student after having been an engineering student. So moving on to other areas. And I recognized, I mean, immediately, as soon as he explained just these basic tenets of formal axiology he I have said many times this just immediately my understanding of that was just an aha experience of and it became the organizing principle for my life. So everything in my head goes through a formal axiology filter. That doesn't mean that I get everything right all the time, but it is the principle of way in which I think about things. Just like we were talking about a moment ago with Ron saying, you know, he can do anything using. Yeah, using.

[00:38:31] Suzie Price: The three factors. You just order everything. You know, what I also find is so interesting, you know, and you can notice it when you have assessment results. But you can also notice it in yourself and in others. When someone's overemphasizing the systemic or over emphasizing the the extrinsic that, you know, doing or over emphasizing even the intrinsic without some balance of the systemic, you know, when you feel like you tell when something's missing, either in the moment or in their permanent thinking. So it's just it is interesting. It's it's like one of those things that you don't want to unlearn. You just want you know, it. It changes everything. How old were you at that time? Do you recall?

[00:39:09] Art Ellis: Early 20s.

[00:39:10] Suzie Price: Early 20s? Yeah, yeah.

[00:39:13] Art Ellis: Probably much too hesitant and shy and naive to realize all of the things I should have done in interacting with him. And of course, being totally unaware that we only had him for a short time. Yeah, that he was going to die, you know, within just a few years. So, you know, at that to age one does not think about things like that particularly. No, no, it's a real blow when it hits. So, you know, later on you may reflect on things like that and it might change how you interact with with other people. But anyway he he just was that I don't think there's ever been another person in my life that's had that much kind of impact that I've carried on into the future in my life, in the in the way that I live. So that's what he was to me. And we've talked about what he was to some of the people that he was working with there and who he was and how how the manuscript came about. Yes, yes.

[00:40:19] Suzie Price: So the manuscript came about. He wrote it for Nationwide. And then what happened?

[00:40:25] Art Ellis: Well, you know, that was in 63. And then I'm sure that Rita must have typed this and never had any information, particularly on, on how it was printed or published for the Nationwide people. I have a feeling they took care of all that probably in at that time. If you want to get something printed, you had to take a manuscript to the printer, or they may have capacity to do that in-house. But but I think they must have printed copies for him. And distributed them. And then I have a feeling that there were some left over because he used this in all the interim years. Any time he wanted to introduce himself to someone, he would give them a copy of this. So in that sense, this was a self published kind of thing Nationwide. Yeah. Printed it, but you know, self published kind of thing. And so when he wanted to introduce anyone to himself, he would he would give them a copy of this so that they could know who he was and what kind of ideas he was trying to present. Yeah, in certain situations. And that is actually how I came to have a copy right at the time that he died, Doctor Hartman and another professor at the university who was an art professor, Richard Clark.

[00:41:48] Art Ellis: And we had Richard in, in, you know, various ones of us we talked about before were. Armed with the informal seminars, after hours seminars that Doctor Hartman did at the student center at the university, teaching us all about formal axiology. And then he was also teaching a group of us, Richard and me and some others actually, how to use the Hartman Value profile. So that's where I learned how to use the Hartman Value profile. So he would give us a profile, and he had taught us how to score it, and then he would have us interpret it and write it up and give it to him, and he would mark all over it and say, don't use these words. Use those words. And oh, man, there's people precise about that. Yeah. And then went back to Mexico for six months. We would mail things to him. And so Richard and I were involved in this process in doing that all the time. Well, he and Richard.

[00:42:43] Suzie Price: I want to jump in real quick, scoring it. I had never done that until this past February in the master Axiology training, where you hand score it right for the faint of heart. Well, it was interesting. It was very interesting.

[00:42:57] Art Ellis: But score form is just a wealth of information. When you're looking right at those raw numbers and you are understanding what they mean. By the way, let me interject this at the moment because it's on my mind because I'm doing this. But when I'm talking about the Hartman value profile, I talk about it having three dimensions. One is the system, the S, the formal axiology, which allows us to have this to process. Yes. And that turns into an E, which is the profile and the number.

[00:43:35] Suzie Price: Profile.

[00:43:36] Art Ellis: That it generates for us to look at. Then we have to take those numbers and turn them into a person. Because we're not doing an assessment to see what's wrong with this person. We're doing an assessment to look at a reflection of this person and our working with those numbers in our descriptions and our our speculations about what this kind of score, combination and pattern means. We have to turn that back into a real person. So, you know, that's the three elements of working with it. Profile.

[00:44:17] Suzie Price: And, you know, the image I just got was as a facilitator, they often say, you know, I'm going to put on my facilitator hat now. So it's like I'm going to put on my systemic hat. Okay, so we've got this profile and I'm explaining in the black and white this means this and this means that. And then the the extrinsic is okay. Now I'm, I'm hand scoring it. And in our case we don't hand score it. And nobody does that much anymore. You know our system does that. So we we actually see the physical results of, you know the scoring and then and then. So I'm going to put my extrinsic hat on so I can understand it interpret it. And I'm saying this for um, future people who are getting certified through me to remember this. Exactly. Just reiterate what you're saying. I'm gonna take my extrinsic cat off because now I put my intrinsic hat on and I'm saying, okay, how do I help this person? How do I understand who this person is first, what they're trying to achieve, what they care about, and then how can I figure out what I share from this that is going to help them get them to where they want to go? Exactly that.

[00:45:15] Suzie Price: And to me, there's so much information in these. I'm always, you know, my counsel always is for myself. And anyone else who trains with me is understand what this person wants, and that's what you help them get. And you don't tell them all these other things that you can see. Yeah. I'm not trying to be the expert. I'm not putting on my systemic or extrinsic hat. Look at me, look at me. I'm like, what's going to help them in this moment right now? Not not all these other things that they need to know about. And I'm going to continual work in progress on that. But every time I stay, you know, take those hats off and on and put the intrinsic on when I'm with somebody, it's a beautiful, beautiful, meaningful, helpful exchange that helps people. Oh, I'm getting getting a little emotional helps people be more who they are, you know, and helps them know how do I do that? And I think that's what he did with you all. And that's part of that connection with him, I would guess.

[00:46:09] Art Ellis: Right. Yeah. And that's the legacy that we're trying to pass on. Yeah. You know, those of us who knew him, we need to pass that on to people like you who are a step removed from him. And, you know, we're going to be gone at some point in the future. But we need to leave this legacy with you for the richness of what we experienced, that perhaps we can pass on to you that can still live beyond us. So at the.

[00:46:36] Suzie Price: Time you did, when you helped make sure this freedom to live got edited and made available to everyone, because that's one piece of it, plus all the other work that you've done with the knowledge of good and structure of value and all the other millions of things that you do.

[00:46:51] Art Ellis: I don't know that I've ever done anything in my life that I think may be as significant as following through and getting this into print. Yeah. And it's taking on a life of its own and, you know, getting spread around the world, which I couldn't be happier about. So at the time, it was approaching Doctor Hartman's end of life. But we didn't know that. But he and Richard had formed another company. This was another attempt on Hartman's part. He had had a couple of failed attempts before to promote and actually sell the Hartman Value Profile, so he and Richard Clarke had formed a company called Axiom Testing Service in Knoxville, and Richard was handling that there. And Richard and Doctor Hartman asked me if I would do some things with them in that, and we didn't get much done, made a few calls on a few people, but they had gotten materials printed and were, you know, working on some different kinds of formats and different things for presentations. And this was before computerization. You know, computers were not part of the process at that time. So everything had to be done by hand. And I've always appreciated how much you get out of looking at a at the score form, which is all you're getting is the results of that. You don't get to look at those intricate patterns of interaction, which is what we were looking at when we were trying to do the interpretations that the computer may do for you now. So then Doctor Hartman suddenly died. And Richard, we were together and he was talking about it. And Richard said he had given me something to read and to, to, you know, as I said, pass on to other people as they were introducing the ideas. And Richard gave me a copy, my copy of Freedom to Live for Jesus, the original manuscript.

[00:48:47] Suzie Price: So if we don't have the video for this actual podcast. But what he is holding up is the original notebook with freedom to live in it that you got from Richard. How cool is that?

[00:49:00] Art Ellis: Indeed. So. And of course, I picked this up to read, and the first line that I read in it after I got through all the all the introduction was in chapter one on this day of my birth, January 27th, 1910. Well, I was cosmically struck at the moment because my birthday is January 27th. So immediately this became.

[00:49:32] Suzie Price: Oh, this is fine to do. There are no accidents. We got to here, no accidents.

[00:49:38] Art Ellis: So you can be born. But you know, when it matches up like that, you know, it's just like, yeah.

[00:49:43] Suzie Price: And you never knew that until you read the read that after he passed.

[00:49:47] Art Ellis: Until I read that. So, uh.

[00:49:50] Suzie Price: And the interesting story about that is to how you met Hartman. You were doing your engineering degree. And I'll just say it real quick. And your wife, Charlotte or girlfriend, maybe at the time, I don't know if she was your wife at the time or not.

[00:50:02] Art Ellis: Girlfriend at the time.

[00:50:03] Suzie Price: Girlfriend was taking some classes and she needed to take an ethics class. And she was. I mean, just how the how life works sometimes it's just beautiful. She was taking ethics classes and she met Hartman through that class, I believe. And then she told you, you need to meet this man. And and oh, by the way, I took his Hartman value profile. I want you to take it, too. And that was how it all started, right?

[00:50:25] Art Ellis: That was how it all started through her. So it can be eternally grateful for that. And I was already in psychology at the moment and had studied test making and, you know, was always quizzing Hartman about about some of the questions that we still have about validity and so forth. And you know, that John Ciampi is working to help, uh, get some solid information about that sort of thing at this point. So that was my introduction to Freedom to Live. And I read it and I thought immediately, you know, we need to find a way to get this into publication. Everyone that, you know, friends and others that I loaned it to to read, their response was, this needs to be in print. Well, I didn't have a means to do that. But, you know, in a few years, then, uh, David and John Davis and whoever else was involved, I can't think of a moment, but formed the institute and then we we at least had a group. And again, people were not familiar with this. And some of the new people in the group introduced to. And they got, you know, part of the process after Doctor Hartman died was that Rita wanted to send his materials, his papers, the boxcar loads of papers to the university to, to be archived. And so they worked on all that. And in going having the opportunity after that stuff was organized to some extent, you know, I found the manuscript of this. And then what magically happened at some point is that REM Edwards was involved with the institute. Richard Clark, by the way, was one of the original people in the institute, and he was the first treasurer for several years.

[00:52:08] Art Ellis: But REM had an opportunity to become the editor of the Hartman Institute series of value with a larger group. And the first thing he contacted me and said, you've been wanting to get Freedom to Live published, and here's an opportunity. So we did that and we were able to work through all of that. And by the way, it is true to the original manuscript. Rodolphe, the publisher in Amsterdam and also had an office in Atlanta, had certain rules and they didn't believe in footnotes. And Hartman really liked to use footnotes. So all of the footnotes in the original manuscript had to be integrated into the text. Their principle was, if it's important enough to go in a footnote, it's important enough to be in the text. So I had to rewrite all of the footnotes and integrate them into the text. Other than that, it is what Hartman wrote. And of course, there were some issues that some people came up with later about, you know, his comment or his some quotations that he made about Jewish people. And they didn't realize that he was actually from a Jewish heritage. His mother had been Jewish. He wasn't raised as a Jewish person, but he was very much at risk in the Nazi culture for that reason. And of course, he didn't was not being. Critical. He was just, you know, reflecting the commentary of the day, we issued a statement which we put on the web page, you know, explaining Hartman, you know, was a person of his time and his language is a person of his time.

[00:54:02] Art Ellis: And the manuscript, the the language. In even the second edition that came out, the first edition had Robert Ginsburg, who was the overall editor. This photograph that he made of a famous sculptor in in Sweden who has hundreds and hundreds of sculptures. This one's called not anything impressive. Two boys with their hands in the air running, but it looks like a celebration. And he liked that. And so this was the cover that we he selected, that we put on all of our publications from that, that series. But when we were able to get control and get the copyright back and have it issued as a second edition in 19, what was it or 2013 or something like that? But anyway, we were able to put a more appropriate cover on it, I think, for our purposes, and do some revisions of some errors that were in it at that time. And we've even moved further than that. I realize that you're not doing video, but we even now have Yuli Fogel, who lives in, uh, the Canary Islands and which is part of Spain and does a great deal of work with people in Europe all over the place. The German translation of Freedom to Live. And we have Jeremy in China working. He has done the Chinese translations. He's been in contact with me and Cliff and others, and he is working toward getting it approved for publication there, which will be some sort of miracle if that happens, given all of the things that that seem counter to what they would like to have published. But we won't tell them that. Yeah.

[00:55:50] Suzie Price: So see what happens. Yes. So you had quite a journey to get approval, and maybe we could just tell a short version of that where I don't know what age you were at the time, but you basically on your own dime and dollar and time, tracked Rita Hartman down to get approval to publish this.

[00:56:10] Art Ellis: I actually had some institute support to do that because the Institute wanted this done. Yeah. And so some of our funds went into it also. But we went to, to Mexico because I'd been bailing Rita without success four times, the documents that needed to be signed. And they were never getting to her. And so REM finally said, we we've got to get this done. And and there were other documents pertaining to other things having to do with the archives and that we needed to get legally signed also. So take he said, just go there and, you know, go to her house. And I had talked to her and we were supposed to stay at her house. Well, I wasn't able to get in touch with her again before we left. I talked with her two weeks before.

[00:56:58] Suzie Price: And what year was this?

[00:57:00] Art Ellis: This was 1994.

[00:57:04] Suzie Price: Okay. 94.

[00:57:06] Art Ellis: 94, 93 or 94. And so we just got on a plane and went. Well, one of the other members from Mexico had told me, whenever you get ready to do this, I've been in touch with him as well. Get in touch with me and I'll be your escort. I'll, you know, I'll furnish your transportation. Well, I couldn't get in touch with him either.

[00:57:28] Art Ellis: So, anyway, you and Charlotte.

[00:57:32] Art Ellis: With Charlotte. So we were flying, I believe, American Airlines. And we had we had a friend who was a travel agent and she made this arrangement. She says American's got this thing going. They own a hotel in Mexico City, and you can spend three nights in their hotel in Mexico City, along with your plane fare for like $30 more. We thought that was a pretty good idea. It turned out to be a lovely place, and so we stayed in the American line. They have actually owned a couple of hotels. They one owned one at the airport. We were staying at another. So we got there, and I'm continuing to try to get in touch with Rita. Now. Cuernavaca, where Rita lives, is not in Mexico City. That's two hours away down the mountain. And Doctor Hartman would drive back and forth to the university, uh, when he had classes to teach and other things to do. But they lived in Cuernavaca. So that was where our ultimate goal was. And I couldn't get in touch with Alfonso either. And, you know, had a wonderful young lady at the hotel who kept helping me with phone calls. In the meantime, we had three days in Mexico City and we did all the tourist things, went to went to the Zocalo and the cathedral and the and the adventures and stuff.

[00:58:52] Art Ellis: Yes.

[00:58:53] Art Ellis: In the meantime, trying to continually make this work. And so I finally did get in touch with Alfonso's wife and she said, oh, he's in somewhere else, 1000km away doing something. So that was we had we were on our own. Yes. So I went to my contact person in the lobby and said, well, first I went to the American Express desk because I was doing things with American Express and asked that guy about getting to Cuernavaca. And he said, oh, senor, you need to let me arrange a car for you. I said, well, what will that cost? And he said, oh, $400. This was 1963. That was a fortune. So I walked across the lobby and said to the young lady who'd been helping me so much, how can I? What's the best way for me to get to Cuernavaca? And she said, oh, sir, you need to take the bus, but you need to take the executive coach. And I said, well, how do I do that? Said, well, you need to take a taxi from here to the bus station on the other side of town and get the executive coach to Cuernavaca. And he said, I can arrange tickets for you and I can arrange the taxi. And I said, well, what will the tickets cost? And the cost of the tickets at the time was $13, which was $3 and a half.

[01:00:11] Suzie Price: And tell me what year this was again.

[01:00:13] Art Ellis: 1993.

[01:00:14] Art Ellis: Or 4.

[01:00:16] Art Ellis: Okay.

[01:00:17] Suzie Price: Just making sure. Yep. Okay. Yep. Okay.

[01:00:19] Art Ellis: So we did.

[01:00:21] Art Ellis: That $3.

[01:00:22] Suzie Price: As opposed to $400. Off we go.

[01:00:24] Art Ellis: Right.

[01:00:25] Art Ellis: So we took to Charlotte was a terrifying ride down the mountain in the bus I was oblivious. I was watching a movie which was on the executive coach had a movie. So we got to the bus station and again, you know, we're sitting in the bus station with all of our luggage trying to figure out what to do next. So I actually managed to make a phone call from the bus station, got the housekeeper at Rita's home who, in broken English and my broken Spanish, communicated that she was in the hospital. But that's all that he could tell me. You know, that's all the information that that I could get at the moment. And also, it occurred to me just suddenly, out of the blue, I don't have the slightest idea where Rita lives, because for all these years we have communicated by mail to Apartado for two two Cuernavaca and Apartado means post office box. It's like somebody trying to find me. I do not live in my post office box. No. So I heard some English being spoken out in the street, and it was a group of American students who were down there on a, you know, studying, studying Spanish and Spanish culture at a nearby university. And I said, do you know anything about how many hospitals there are in Cuernavaca? And he had no idea. But he flagged down a passerby and asked them a native person. And he said, there are several. And, uh, I said.

[01:02:24] Art Ellis: Hmm.

[01:02:25] Art Ellis: I wonder how I can go about finding out anything. And he said, why don't you go talk to the president of our college who is an expatriate American, and she knows all of these people, and she can probably help you. And she's just really personable. And so I left Charlotte with the luggage and walked a couple of blocks to the university and met this wonderful person who put her secretary at work trying to find Rita in the hospital and was unsuccessful. And she said, you know, doctors down here have their own medical clinics with beds, and sometimes that's roughly referred to as a hospital. You need to find out who her doctor is. And there is a lady coming to teach a class at 4:00 who is part of this community and probably knows her and can direct you in the right way. And I said, I'll be back at 4:00. Meanwhile, is there somewhere nearby that you would recommend that we stay? And she said, we use a hotel. It's three blocks from here. And it was turned out to be just this. Your image of an old fashioned Mexican hotel. Walled garden. Tiles everywhere. Flowers everywhere. Just.

[01:03:44] Art Ellis: Yes.

[01:03:45] Art Ellis: So we did all that. We made all those contacts. We finally tracked her down through her doctor. And after we did that, she insisted that we go to her house and stay there instead of the hotel while she's in the hospital. And we went every day and visited her. We finally got all the papers notarized and, uh, everything that we needed to do came back home with successful. And I think I was the last person from the institute to actually see her. And we had a very tearful goodbye when we did. So I think she did have some other friends from Knoxville visit her in the summer before she died in September of that same year.

[01:04:31] Art Ellis: So you had not gotten.

[01:04:32] Suzie Price: Her to sign all those papers or do all that? The book would not be published?

[01:04:37] Art Ellis: No. They really we.

[01:04:39] Art Ellis: Really needed to get that done. So, you know, Grimm felt like it was urgent enough that I should go get it done. And so I did, and we were able to carry through with that and get it into print.

[01:04:52] Art Ellis: So I love.

[01:04:53] Suzie Price: All the adventure that you had, and it sounds so happenstance, but it also sounds like it was as it should be. So you had an adventure and it's like a movie, you know, every every turn you think, oh, something bad's going to happen. Then the answer shows up, you know, or, you know, not going to make it, but they make it.

[01:05:11] Art Ellis: Yes, it was an adventure. It was just a wonderful experience. We had so many people take care of us just out of the blue like this, this college president, like the friends of hers that that we knew, like the attorney, the the notary who took care of getting this done for us and that, you know, it was just one thing after another that that worked just exactly as it should have worked. Yeah.

[01:05:44] Art Ellis: And it was meant to be.

[01:05:45] Art Ellis: Came back home.

[01:05:47] Art Ellis: Meant to.

[01:05:47] Suzie Price: Be a great story about how freedom to live came to life through your efforts and focus.

[01:05:54] Art Ellis: And then it was it.

[01:05:56] Art Ellis: Was a major thing, I think, when the Institute was able to get the copyright back and issue the second edition, because it made it much more accessible to people who were coming along who needed to see this. And it's great grounding for anybody who is a practitioner to get enough of a sense of what formal axiology is all about and what Hartman was all about to use this background in for the applications that you put it to use. So it's great. Yeah. Kind of grounding.

[01:06:30] Art Ellis: Yes. We need the.

[01:06:31] Suzie Price: Grounding, even if we're not going to study. Like I'm glad that I hand scored and, you know, went through all that I have gone through, but not as many people are going to even do that. But you need some kind of grounding to understand the meaning of all of this, and then put our intrinsic hat on and have those kind of discussions. But yes, it's it's very important.

[01:06:54] Art Ellis: One of the things that I think that it gives access to is, you know, not everyone who's a practitioner practices axiology. Right.

[01:07:04] Art Ellis: Well, there you go.

[01:07:06] Art Ellis: So it gives people a means of entry into a way to make this work in their own lives if they wish to do that, you know, and I would certainly wish that everyone would do that. But it is an access for people. Yeah, that gives them a way to do that, that they might not have otherwise.

[01:07:32] Suzie Price: What are your favorite chapters in the book? Or if you were to think about those people.

[01:07:37] Art Ellis: For most people, that's a.

[01:07:40] Suzie Price: Non philosopher I know. It's like, how do I pick my favorite child, right? The non philosopher, the end user, or someone who just wants to use it to improve their life or maybe be a better leader? Is there a chapters that you would point to or sections?

[01:07:54] Art Ellis: I think chapter three, in which he entitles Georges and everyone else's problem, which is the same chapter when I read through the chapter before that with that quotation.

[01:08:05] Art Ellis: Yeah, but.

[01:08:05] Art Ellis: It follows that and it's, it's the chapter in which he talks about the what he calls the man of fear and the man of faith.

[01:08:13] Art Ellis: Yeah.

[01:08:14] Art Ellis: You know, the person of fear and the person of faith.

[01:08:16] Art Ellis: I think the quiz.

[01:08:18] Suzie Price: That he has in there, there's kind of a quiz where you read, yeah, here's a man of fear, look acts. And here's how the man of faith act. So it's it's actually teaching you how to be intrinsic, how to. How to value yourself and value others, I believe. Right?

[01:08:34] Art Ellis: Yes.

[01:08:34] Art Ellis: And it's the same chapter in which he.

[01:08:36] Art Ellis: Talks about the those four developmental things. Know yourself. Choose yourself. Yeah. Grow yourself and give yourself. Or he says, create yourself.

[01:08:46] Art Ellis: Yes.

[01:08:47] Art Ellis: Grow yourself. And then he talks about other ways of self development and talks about four questions about working in the work world, actually. But he he takes it from why am I here at all? And what can.

[01:09:01] Art Ellis: I do for the.

[01:09:02] Art Ellis: Organization? What can the organization do for me, and how can we help each other and what can we do for the world? Yeah. And how can I help this organization function in the world? So he, you know, he's addressing this to a group of executives. So even include that sort of thing. And then he goes on to talk about spiritual access aspects. But he also talks about, you know, you were talking about the things that are going on in our world and in our society that are disturbing. And he has a quotation here that I'd like to read that's on page 103, and which he says, fewer than one fourth saw the Nazi evil clearly enough to get out, even though they had six years to do it.

[01:09:47] Suzie Price: What paragraph is that?

[01:09:48] Art Ellis: That is the third paragraph. Fourth paragraph down on page 103. Okay. In the second edition. Okay. He says the same kind of evil represented by Hitler in his contempt and hate for other people is present in the US today. And he's writing this in the 60s.

[01:10:09] Art Ellis: Wow.

[01:10:10] Suzie Price: Yeah.

[01:10:11] Art Ellis: But, you know, you can certainly transfer that into into today, demagogues, political opportunists and hate hucksters are peddling the same kind of semi-violent, semi-literate black and white anti-philosophy using the same techniques of distortions, repeated lies and malicious gossip to prey upon dull, frustrated people with no place to go and nothing constructive to do so. These victims of demagoguery go along with the mob gold into irrationality and madness. It's a dangerous game, one in which can push a nation of millions of people 175 million, he says. At that time, as well as the rest of the world, into an orgy of self-destruction, all in the name of false Americanism and a false religion. And he goes on to quote first John that says, if a man say, I love God and hateth his brother, he is a liar, for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God, whom he has not seen? But anyway, his. I think that probably is my favorite chapter in the whole book in terms of offering people an avenue to look at themselves, and a way to apply the hierarchy of values to their lives, and some practical guidelines for even how to do this. And so I think that those are the important issues. And I would probably single out that chapter.

[01:11:49] Suzie Price: Yes, it's excellent. And that's the one I have sticky notes on. I've got notes all through this, have sticky notes and.

[01:11:56] Art Ellis: Highlight my book. Yes. The way it handles, it's one.

[01:12:00] Suzie Price: Of those, you know, I just have a handful of books like that that I continually go back to and learn from and that guide me.

[01:12:08] Art Ellis: And yes, the.

[01:12:09] Art Ellis: Richness just can't be delved. I mean, it's always there. It's more and more all the time. The more understanding you have, the greater the richness that you get from it. So that's what we have to pass on, I hope to other people, is this kind of legacy and hope that they will apply it to their lives.

[01:12:30] Suzie Price: Well, I just personally want to thank you and your wife for your dedication to this and the journey that you took, you know, to get this published. And, you know, you think about that. That was you know, you're probably early on in your career and married life or at that point, I don't know. But what was the 30 years ago probably wasn't that early on, but still, to disrupt your life and go have this adventure, you know, and then pay all the dues that you've paid to keep the Hartman Institute going and and to even today, counsel and coach people through things like this podcast and help others who have questions. It's just a real gift.

[01:13:08] Art Ellis: Well, I hope that this will.

[01:13:09] Art Ellis: Be productive and it is turning out to be what you want it to be.

[01:13:12] Suzie Price: Absolutely, absolutely. So what else about the book do we want to share that we haven't said, or that's on your mind, or that you have in your notes, the book or Hartman?

[01:13:23] Art Ellis: Well, you know, the.

[01:13:24] Art Ellis: Question has been posed as why as it's still important. And I mentioned. It's written in the jargon of the day, but the ideas are not just of that day. They are carried on into our lives right now and into the future. Doctor Hartman, at one point, you know, in answer to a question at one of our seminars or in a class, I can't remember which he was asked, you know, how long do you think, before this will catch on? And he said, well, at least 100 years. Well, we're 50 years into, uh, you know, post his death at this point. Is that right? You know, 70, 50 years.

[01:14:03] Suzie Price: Yeah.

[01:14:03] Art Ellis: So the next 50 years, we hope a lot of good things will happen to move this forward. Uh, we're at the brink of a lot of things in our world, in our in our culture, which are very threatening. Not only political things, but, you know, things that are going on environmentally, which people warn about. And others say, well, these are not so important. But, you know, I just from a practical standpoint, say there have never been so many of us on this planet who can impact it so much negatively if we, you know, don't do what we need to do and we need to be aware of that. So, you know, those kinds of warnings about taking rational judgment. I've often said that Doctor Hartman seemed to have a whole lot more faith in rational judgment than I have, but he thought that if people were presented with good information in a way that they could understand, that they would respond rationally. And he really believed in people's goodness. And if we can get through to their goodness, they will make good decisions that have to do not only with themselves, but with everyone else, and that we're all a world, you know, of neighbors.

[01:15:19] Art Ellis: Yes.

[01:15:20] Art Ellis: I really wish that we could learn to to live together in that way, uh, and get along. And so that's what I think we have to carry away. That's the ongoing message in this book that, as you have pointed out, uh, and we've talked about more than once in this conversation, is just a richness that keeps giving over and over as you, uh, read it in a new perspective all the time. I can't think of another time in my life, at least, that I have been aware of, that these ideas are more important for application because we need good decisions, we need good direction, we need much less hatefulness and much less aggression, and much less of the things that make us in equal. So we need all of those things that would help all of us become better and become a better society. And this puzzling to me why in our society you know that more people don't recognize that those are the actually the ways that we need to go to not only have a better quality of life, but to even live better with each other. So I hope that, you know, we can have an influence on that. And let's see, do you want to know what what I'm doing with mind, body and spirit?

[01:16:39] Art Ellis: I do, but.

[01:16:40] Suzie Price: Before we go off of that, I just kind of wanted to just kind of tag on to what you just said. I was just going back to how you describe the intrinsic. And so it's really a call to I think, you know, when you say, why do people end up, you know, so I think sometimes we can get caught up in the systemic, like what's right or wrong, I'm right, you're wrong or the extrinsic. We've got to do it this way, you know. But really, while all that matters and that we have all three dimensions because we need them to make the, you know, have things move along in the world. The intrinsic is the fuel to connection and the fuel. I interviewed an author who wrote a book that's been on the best seller list called Connectability, and he's just talking about how lonely people are and the power of connection, and that he was relearning that himself. So maybe the the answer is continually going back to remembering the power of empathy, the way you describe intrinsic, the depth of meaning, empathy, love is non denumerable infinite cannot count it. You know, heart and spirit, you know. So the more we can continually tap into that just in our own lives, you know, like I think of some examples even now as I'm thinking about like, you know, I could do a better job in this situation being this way. You know, I try to I mean, it, I want to, but we're just so human and we get caught up in things, you know? So just a call to continually reevaluate ourselves. And then before we close this, I'm going to ask you one more question about if you want anything else to share, but I'm going to mention something that's in the book. And he describes Axiology as a means to an end and that his view, the end goal is free. Which is name of your book or his book? Freedom to live, freedom to be Born Again and Freedom from annihilation.

[01:18:28] Art Ellis: Which was a great. At the time, and looks like it's a rising concern in now. Yeah. In our time now.

[01:18:35] Art Ellis: Yeah, yeah.

[01:18:36] Art Ellis: And one of the other things that I'll comment on in relation to what you just said is that from a theoretical perspective, at least, the intrinsic encompasses the extrinsic and the systemic right.

[01:18:49] Art Ellis: Right.

[01:18:50] Art Ellis: From an intrinsic base. Then you will deal with the extrinsic and the.

[01:18:56] Art Ellis: Systemic.

[01:18:57] Art Ellis: In more appropriate ways. And you don't want to be out of balance. You don't want to be all intrinsic. You know, that's not the goal. The goal is to be in balance because all of these pieces are part of life. It's just that they fit at certain in certain ways, and they need to need not be overvalued. And so that they interfere with the good functioning of of the other dimensions. So that everything is in balance and in its proper perspective. So that's the objective of trying to make this stuff work for yourself, is that try to keep it in balance and in the proper hierarchy. And that's what we would like for people to learn to do. Those that don't know how to do it naturally.

[01:19:50] Suzie Price: And I believe to, you know, his is about being born again. It's like that means, okay, today I get to try it again. You know, I get to do do more of this now, you know, and and if we all are individually coming from that place, it radiates out. We, you know, we can't control what other people are doing, but we can control our approach to life and to people and our interactions.

[01:20:13] Art Ellis: Yeah.

[01:20:14] Art Ellis: And we can offer whatever it is that we have to offer that might influence others to. We can't control them, but we might be able to positively influence.

[01:20:23] Art Ellis: Yeah.

[01:20:24] Suzie Price: Whether they get that in that moment or not, we know we have given and that they do with it what they will. Yes, I love that, I love that. Well, it's been wonderful talking about this book. Let's touch on a few things since I have you here. And I'm just curious about a couple of your things we've been asking everybody this month. This is January 2024 when we're recording this. You know what their favorite ideas are for this year around mind, body, spirit. So it'd be fun to hear what your thoughts are. We have them from our last interview and they might be similar, but what are some of the favorite things or things that you're more focused on this year than ever before? Maybe for for those areas?

[01:21:02] Art Ellis: Okay.

[01:21:03] Art Ellis: And I thought about this a little bit in relation to mine. I like to keep my mind stimulated, especially at my age. I don't want to lose anything that I don't have to lose. So I like to read all kinds of things, all kinds of books. And you all, you know that we share some interests in some books, but I like to read a variety of books, and I read more than one book at once. I read a half a dozen books at a time, and I read everything from philosophy and cosmology and scientific kinds of things to flippant, entertaining authors and mysteries and things like that that I really enjoy. So and I sometimes I have to get away from the deep stuff.

[01:21:45] Art Ellis: Yeah.

[01:21:47] Art Ellis: And have some fun with reading. So I find that I have to alternate. So I do that. I like to work puzzles. I've gotten almost addicted to Wordle, you know, Wordle.

[01:21:59] Art Ellis: Yes.

[01:22:00] Suzie Price: That is popular. I've never played it, but I know people are into it.

[01:22:03] Art Ellis: Uh, you can.

[01:22:04] Art Ellis: Uh, just, uh, look up, uh, Wordle and New York Times will come up and you can get in and play it every day without subscribing or without joining anything. It'll let you play every day. And it's fun. And it I think I've only failed to solve it one time.

[01:22:21] Art Ellis: And I was thinking I was.

[01:22:22] Suzie Price: Like, I bet he's really good at this because you're so smart. I'm like, I bet he aces Wordle.

[01:22:28] Art Ellis: Yes, well, that's.

[01:22:30] Art Ellis: It would be an extreme accident if you could get it on the first guess, because you're coming from nowhere. But I can usually get it in 3 or 4 guesses. That's my, uh. Anyway, I like to work puzzles, keep my mind going, and I like to have interactions with interesting people. You know, I like to try to glean wisdom from wherever I can get it and get things that are, uh, stimulating and I can apply to my life and body. I like to eat nourishing food and I and really enjoy eating it.

[01:23:04] Suzie Price: Do you follow a particular type of food plan or nutrition plan? Do you have a certain one that you study?

[01:23:10] Art Ellis: Mostly vegetarian. Charlotte is pretty vegetarian. Unless we're somewhere special. We're not strict. Strict.

[01:23:17] Art Ellis: Yeah, I am a vegan.

[01:23:19] Suzie Price: So yeah, that's curious if.

[01:23:21] Art Ellis: You're able.

[01:23:21] Art Ellis: To, uh, Switzerland. The food there is so special and so specialty done that uh, often will violate that.

[01:23:29] Art Ellis: To meet.

[01:23:30] Suzie Price: You're both so healthy and trim and you vibrate. You know, health and energy. Both of you do.

[01:23:37] Art Ellis: And stay active is another thing. We, you know, we we walk and and stay active just around our house. There's a lot to do so and just do healthy things, you know, not do foolish things that are that are not healthy. I still take precautions. You know, I don't want to get infected with anything. So I'm still a mask wearer when I go out, because Tennessee is one of the worst places in the country right now for getting sick. So I try to be healthy and do have healthy practices for spirit. There's nothing that enhances my spirit more than the traveling that we do and the places that we go. We just love the the inspiration of the traveling and it's always good for my spirit. We also love storytelling, and here where we live, we're close to Jonesborough, Tennessee, which is the oldest town in Tennessee. And in that town is the International Storytelling Center.

[01:24:32] Art Ellis: Oh, wow.

[01:24:34] Art Ellis: And they have storytelling events all through the year. We go to a few of those, but the big thing that we do in the fall is the International Storytelling Festival, which is three days of non-stop storytelling, and there are some before and after events of that as well. And we have some friends who come and go to that with us, and it does my spirit good every year to hear the stories. And they're big in my life, of course, is music. Yes.

[01:25:08] Suzie Price: I think you're in the choir at your church, aren't you? Or are you? Well, I used to be.

[01:25:12] Art Ellis: I used to be. And I know.

[01:25:13] Suzie Price: Charlotte plays the flute. I think.

[01:25:15] Art Ellis: Charlotte plays.

[01:25:16] Art Ellis: The flute and is still has an active flute group and will be doing a concert in April, and we take in a lot of music, uh, go to a lot of different kinds of concerts, and I play the guitar.

[01:25:28] Art Ellis: Oh, you do. That's neat.

[01:25:30] Art Ellis: We perform at Biltmore House, Biltmore Estate during Christmas. She does a lot more than I do. And in the spring at their Flower Festival in May, April and May. So we've been doing that for years. She's been doing it for 30 years. I've been doing it for less than that. But so anyway, we enjoyed doing that. And the other the other incidental thing is that Mozart's birthday is also January the 27th.

[01:25:58] Art Ellis: How about that? You're in.

[01:25:59] Suzie Price: Great company. Are they're in great company with you.

[01:26:03] Art Ellis: However you want to look at it I don't.

[01:26:04] Art Ellis: Know.

[01:26:05] Suzie Price: Yeah, we'll take it the second way.

[01:26:07] Art Ellis: So those are the things that I think of in my life that are inspiring. And in each of those areas.

[01:26:14] Art Ellis: I like.

[01:26:15] Suzie Price: It, I like it. Let's go to let's just skip a couple of the other questions and do the what advice you'd give your 25 year old self.

[01:26:26] Art Ellis: One of the things that I had that I missed out on in my life was learning more about my family. I realized that I actually know very little about my mother and my father. Interesting how they're growing up. You know, I've got some history of it, but, you know, details and stories did not get. We were traveling back and forth from where we live in Upper East Tennessee to Maryville, Tennessee, a lot when, uh, Charlotte's mother was alive and, uh, we would go down and take care of her. And we like to travel the back roads, which took us around one of the lakes, Douglas Lake. And it occurred to me at one time, and my father loved to fish, and so did his father. And and I would go with him as a, as a kid on fishing trips to that lake and some of the places that we went to. And it occurred to me one time they grew up, he grew up before the lake was there, and my grandfather farmed there before the lake was there. It never occurred to me to even talk to them about that. And I was thinking, oh, what I've missed in terms of learning about what that area was like before the lake was formed, you know, it's just things like that.

[01:27:46] Art Ellis: Yes.

[01:27:47] Suzie Price: So we so those of us who still have our parents with us, let's go ask some questions. And there's an organization that captures and the name escapes me. But it's like my story. And they have like little story booths and they have people go in and record their life story, and people ask them questions and they say that, you know, uh, maybe someone is listening, will know. And I could put it in the show notes later on as an add on. But there is a process now that is capturing that for the same reason. What you're just talking about people saying, you know, I didn't ask.

[01:28:17] Art Ellis: And there's an.

[01:28:18] Art Ellis: Exercise, uh, that I've seen that a booklet that you can give someone and every day they answer a different question about their stories and their experience. I would certainly interact with Hartman more.

[01:28:33] Art Ellis: Yeah, yeah.

[01:28:34] Suzie Price: You had talked a little bit about that when you started, but I think you more than, you know, added so much value based on the experience you got. It was enough, you know, for you to do all that you've done.

[01:28:44] Art Ellis: Uh, take away I think is to perhaps as a young person, interact more with significant people in your life and ask them questions that even if you're hesitant to do. So.

[01:28:57] Suzie Price: Yeah, inquiry. Be curious and go ahead and follow through with it as opposed to just thinking about it. Right? Right.

[01:29:03] Art Ellis: Yeah, yeah. Oh, and I.

[01:29:04] Art Ellis: Think I would give my 25 year old self the advice to lighten up, not to be serious about too many things and enjoy things more along the way. Although I've done that a great deal in my life, I think that I probably, uh, invested a great deal of energy into trying to be successful that I didn't need to do.

[01:29:24] Art Ellis: Uh, interesting.

[01:29:26] Suzie Price: Yes, yes. Well, this has been a beautiful conversation, as I knew it would be. It's a joy to talk to you and to know you and appreciate you and share you with the world. As we close, is there any additional advice or wisdom that you'd like to share, or thoughts about Hartman, or Freedom to Live, or anything that you'd like to share?

[01:29:49] Art Ellis: I would encourage doing what we talked about. You know, the the message that's in freedom to live, which is actually practicing informal axiology in one's life, you know, learn how to do that is the thing that that I would pass on and always remember that, you know, the INS part is people are more important than the things in your life which are more important than the rules and structure and rigidity that you might want to impose in your life. So if you can keep that hierarchy in mind, that would be terrific. Now, the other thing that I think is attract positive energy. I'm a believer in energy. And and I think that the more you can do to attract positive things into your life, the more that does to negate the negative part, to overcome the negative part. And I think if you do that backwards, if you concentrate on the negative that you're you're drawing the wrong kind of energy into your life. So I think it is more important than it than it sounds like it might be. And the other, you know, just things that I would throw out is try to live gratefully it. The trite phrase it comes, which I don't like is have an attitude of gratitude.

[01:31:14] Art Ellis: Yeah, I.

[01:31:15] Art Ellis: Praise that in someone. Have a posture of of gratitude.

[01:31:18] Art Ellis: Yeah. Have a heart of appreciation.

[01:31:21] Suzie Price: Have a habit of appreciation I like that.

[01:31:24] Art Ellis: Yeah, yeah.

[01:31:25] Suzie Price: Cultivate that. We have to cultivate that.

[01:31:28] Art Ellis: Exactly. And and you know, just try to be gracious and generous and kind in all of your actions in life. And I would encourage you to follow what I probably quoted before as a paraphrase of John Wesley, who said, do all the good you can for everyone you can every day and every opportunity that you have. So try to do some good for someone if it's just, you know, passing along a smile or a good comment. Try to do something like that every day. And if you have some serious interactions with people in which you are, you know, they want to know what can they do for you. Tell them to pay it forward. Do something good for someone else and ask them to do it for three people.

[01:32:25] Suzie Price: Yes. Oh, I like that too. Yes.

[01:32:28] Art Ellis: Ask them to ask the people that they do it for, to pass it along to three people. And that way, you know you have goodness spreading in our world. Yes, from person to person and laugh a lot. Find reasons to laugh.

[01:32:47] Suzie Price: I like it, yes, yes, enjoy the day. Enjoy the life.

[01:32:51] Art Ellis: Yes.

[01:32:52] Art Ellis: One of my phrases is enjoy the gift of this day. And that's what I would put on a billboard, by the way, was when you're in the questions, that is.

[01:33:00] Suzie Price: How you sign your emails or your texts or any kind of messages. Enjoy the gift of the day.

[01:33:05] Art Ellis: Yes. Yeah, I like it.

[01:33:07] Suzie Price: Yes. So we will close on that. Thank you so much.

[01:33:10] Art Ellis: Thank you. It's been a joy.

[01:33:13] Suzie Price: Well, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Art to see all the links to other episodes, and to see links to some of the things we discussed, go to priceless professional.com/better decisions I always share at the end of every discussion, a little bit of my favorite thoughts, and there's so many things that I appreciate from this episode. And most of all, it's just arts goodness. Just it's sincerity. His ability to be humble and interested and passionate while being measured and smart. I mean, there's just so much to the discussion and I so appreciate what he did with the book Freedom to Live. I hope that you're inspired to read it. We've got a link to it in the show notes. But, you know, he made sure that that book is available today and plus all the other work he's done with the technical manuals to preserve Hartman's work, the knowledge of good and the structure of value, and the work that he does around Hartman's archive, so that we can save the hundreds of thousands of pages of Hartman's work and getting it digitized. And he's been the one who's stuck by that all these years. And so there's a lot of good happening because of Art Ellis, and it's all behind the scenes, and he doesn't make a fuss about it. He and his wife Charlotte, just do really good things. And something he said really touched me when he said, you know, those of us who knew him, we know we need to pass that on to people like you who are a step removed from him.

[01:34:45] Suzie Price: And, you know, we're going to be gone at some point and in the future. But we need to leave this legacy with you for the richness of what we experience, that perhaps we can pass on to you that can still live beyond us. And then that's just so meaningful. And it's so wonderful to see the Hartman Institute blossoming and growing. And, you know, more and more people are getting involved and understanding the power of this goodness. And I love that, he said. I don't know that I've ever done anything in my life that I think may be as significant as following through and getting this book, Freedom to Live into Print. It's taken on a life of its own, is getting spread around the world, which I couldn't be happier about. So it's been transcribed in different languages. More and more of us read it. Every time I read it. I learn something new and I have a more insight, which is super amazing. And from his book we talk about this in the book, and I did a newsletter article one time about it, but I was going to kind of recap some of the things that Hartman teaches, and it's really a great takeaway when you think about making better decisions and you think about leaving a better world. Hartman shared four steps for developing our inner selves. So when you think about what Hartman measures, it's the worldview and the self view.

[01:36:02] Suzie Price: So how do we develop our inner self? Because every time we make a decision, we bring ourselves with us. And so that is powerful work. It's nice. We can measure and see where we are so we can grow. But he took different philosophers and different, different ideas and put them in this nice formula for developing ourselves. So I'm going to share that with you. So first know yourself. That's from Socrates. So we got to know who we are. We need self awareness. Then we have to choose ourselves. We have. And that was Kierkegaard who talked about that. We need to choose that we. We are going to grow ourselves. That's the next thing. That was Pico della mirandola and Kierkegaard's comments. Grow yourself. And then once you've done all that, give yourself to something greater than yourself, which is what Jesus said know yourself. Choose yourself, grow yourself. Give yourself to something greater than yourself. So I often think that that's some of the power in the axiology and informal axiology the way we use it, where you see the worldview and the self view that you start to understand, I need to develop my inner self as much as I need to develop or want to develop the working in the world self and my inner self. That dimensions are sense of self. So I know my worthiness, role, awareness. I have a sense of belonging, I have role confidence and then self direction.

[01:37:25] Suzie Price: I have hope for the future. If you don't have hope, you don't have a sense of belonging and you don't see your worth. We're not living to our potential and we're having a hard go at things and it's hard for us to make really good decisions. So this is Hartman saying know yourself, choose yourself, grow yourself, give yourself to something greater than yourself. And each step in that four step process is empowering and energizing. It provides us a sense of control and possibility, so we turn our attention toward what we can control and that we can understand which is where are we now and where can we go. You can measure on the Trimetric assessment self view 0 to 100. Where am I on knowing myself and growing myself and giving myself to others greater than myself, that you can measure all of that. There's so much going on around us and sometimes we don't feel like we have control, and we do have control over growing our sense of worth. Finding real confidence in a sense of belonging, getting hope for the future, understanding that that matters, and then understanding that once we understand it for ourselves and are growing it for ourselves, we can help others see it. And that is the magic in all of this. This is how we create a wake up, eager workforce. This is how we create a better world that makes better decisions. And the benefit to this is to ourselves.

[01:38:50] Suzie Price: And the world is endless. So what I love about this whole conversation and all the work that art and all the folks that knew Hartman have continued when he unexpectedly died in 1973, is that we can embrace all the good we've come into this world with and accept who we are, while also pointing out exactly where we can grow. It's showing what is possible and shining a light on how we can become more. And Hartman had a great quote. He said, this is the material you have to develop to infinity, and there is absolutely no limit to which you can go. You are your own creation. It's never too late. Okay, I got all choked up over that quote. There's absolutely no limit to which you can go. There is no limit. So know yourself. Choose yourself, grow yourself, give yourself to something greater than yourself. And I love the order of that. Self discovery leads to self knowledge. Self knowledge leads to self choosing and self creating. This leads to impactful giving to others because as we grow our inner selves, we have more to give to others. And it's a wonderful way to live, give and love. So thank you so much for tuning in to this episode, and I thank Art for all that he has done. Uh, one last quote from him that he talked about during our discussion that I want to share, and that I'm going to tell you a little bit about our next episode, which tags nicely to this conversation today, but here's a final couple quotes from our.

[01:40:26] Suzie Price: I cannot think of another time in my life that I have been aware of these ideas that are more important for application. Because we need good decisions, we need good direction, we need much less hatefulness and much less aggression, and much less of the things that make us in equal or unequal in applying justice. So we need all of those things will help all of us become better and become a better society. And it's puzzling to me why in our society, that more people don't recognize that those are actually the ways that we need to go to not only have a better quality of life, but to even live better with each other. So let's make better decisions. Let's check out this episode for any of the links. I've got links to my prior conversation with Art, and we've got a transcript that outlines all the discussion that we've had here, so you can go look at that. If that's helpful to you, share this episode with others. Please subscribe. That helps us know that you're involved and interested. If you'd like to leave us a review, of course, we're always happy for that and we will reward with you if you let us know about it with some freebies from us. The show notes for today's episode are at priceless professional.com/better decisions. Our. Our next episode will be interesting to check out.

[01:41:39] Suzie Price: It is discussions with others who are using Axiology so other consultants like me. There was a Hartman conference in Atlanta last fall and I interviewed some of the attendees. Why are they there? Why do they use Axiology? Why do they fly to Atlanta to come to a conference about Robert Hartman? So you'll have that discussion. And then I had the opportunity to interview Mark Moore, Steve Byram and Art Ellis in a panel discussion, and I was able to record that. And we talk about advice Hartman would give us, having Hartman read there, Hartman, their profile results and others. So you'll get to hear from more people about their experience with Hartman. So I'm so glad we were able to capture that. And that will be in the next episode. And then you might hear some of your colleagues and friends and other consultants who use Axiology, and you'll just see how it's something that is used all over the world. And so I can't wait to share that with you too. I'm so happy that you showed up and listened, and I just am thankful for you and thankful for all the goodness and all of the possibility. And just let's just go help each other. Let's grow ourselves and let's help others grow and be all that they can be. Let's look for the good. We'll put people first before task, before systems, but we'll use all three to make great decisions. Take care.

[01:43:07] Outro: This episode of the Wake Up Eager Workforce podcast was brought to you by Priceless Professional Development. Thank you for tuning in. If you enjoyed today's show, head over to Priceless professional.com to gain access to more professional development resources.