Wake Up Eager Workforce 
Episode 128 Transcript

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In this episode of the Wake Up Eager Workforce podcast, host Suzie Price explores how emotional intelligence, values, and self-awareness shape effective leadership. Joined by Advanced Master Axiologist Ron Oltmanns, they dive into the practical applications of Robert Hartman’s Axiology—a science-based approach to decision-making and personal development.

Through thoughtful insights and real-world metaphors (including lessons from aviation), this conversation helps leaders understand how to stay fully engaged, prioritize what matters, and avoid becoming a “passenger in their own cockpit.”

Whether you're an executive, team leader, or aspiring coach, this episode offers powerful strategies to lead with greater clarity, courage, and intention.

Read the transcript for Episode 128 below to dive deeper into these insights and take your productivity to the next level.

Transcript

[00:00:00.000] Suzie Price: this wide ranging conversation with Advanced Master Axiology Ron Oltmans we explore the powerful intersection of Robert Hartman's axiology emotional intelligence personal development leadership and decision making Ron even draws on his experience as a pilot to make compelling comparisons between flight safety and leadership he warns against over reliance on technology in the cockpit and in the boardroom sharing don't be a passenger in your own cockpit don't be a passenger don't sit there and let the technology take over make sure you know everything about your role just because you have the title doesn't mean that you're going to be successful so whether you're flying a plane or leading a team it's not the title that makes you effective it's your engagement your awareness and willingness to be challenged Ron emphasizes that real leadership means owning your role staying on top of systems and being confident enough to invite feedback and dissenting views CEOs and leaders who fail to do this he says risk becoming passive in their own sea suit so I love this conversation Ron's energizing reminders that leadership is not about the label but how you fully show up and so much more that we cover I know you're going to enjoy it as much as I did can't wait to share it with you Michael hit it

[00:01:19] Intro: welcome to the wake up Eager Workforce podcast a show designed for leaders trainers and consultants who are responsible for employee selection and professional development each episode is packed full with insider tips best practices expert interviews and inspiration please welcome the host who is helping leaders trainers and consultants everywhere Suzie Price

[00:01:45] Suzie Price: welcome to the wake up Eager Workforce Podcast I'm Susie Price your host and I'm here to provide you with tools resources encouragement and inspiration to help you create a wake up eager life and a high commitment low drama wake up Eager Workforce this episode is sponsored by my company Priceless Professional Development we are on episode 1 28 today the title is The Eager Leader's Edge Emotions Axiology and Authentic Growth the show notes for today is at priceless professional.com forward slash eager leader that's my favorite word eager e a G E R priceless professional com forward slash eager leader that's where you can get links to everything a lot of things that we reference today what we are going to talk about today is we're going to talk about axiology and Robert Hartman who he who he was and what axiology is and how these knowing these this person and this science helps deepen lives and we'll share with you what axiology is and who Robert Hartman was if that is if you are not familiar with them so you don't need to know them to get something out of this episode today I think you'll be very inspired um both have been a big part of my life and we've had a lot of episodes about both topics here um on the Wake Up Eagle Workforce podcast we're gonna talk about exploring purpose we're gonna do some self reflection and talk about emotions and how they play a part in our life and how important they are we're gonna talk about how to understand emotions in the workforce in leadership and in decision making so let me tell you a little bit about Ron and then we will hop right into the episode he's the co founder of Lead Skill a leadership consulting firm that develops leaders teams and organizations for greater impact he's got more than 25 years of experience in this and he works with leaders in enterprise small business and startups in the US and Asia he has a deep perspective on what makes people successful and what gets in their way and you will pick up on the deep perspective as he shares his insights and he does it in a very authentic and genuine way so I think you're gonna enjoy that and really appreciate his wisdom yes interesting that he was born in Venezuela he grew up in the US he lived 5 years in Singapore and 3 years in Shanghai and they he and his wife currently live in Houston Texas they have 2 grown sons he was an early pioneer in coaching so he was first certified in 1999 by the International Coach Federation so that was really much on the leading edge of coaching people weren't talking about it like they do today and he has coached hundreds and hundreds of leaders worldwide uh over that time period so you're if you're working with Ron or talking or spending a time with him you you know he has experience and knows what he talks about is talking about and you'll see that here in this episode he likes understanding leaders within the context of the organization and finds that is very crucial his work with them and then he conducts workforce assessments which we talk about some of the same tools that we use and and that relate to axiology and he is involved in Hartman he's read a lot of his works which we'll talk about he was he's been trained by some of Hartman's students uh some of the people that we've had on the on the podcast and some of the folks that I've referenced over years and he also served on the Hartman Institute board and so we'll have a link to the Hartman Institute website I was also on the board he was on it earlier and I was on it most recently we have a lot of that in common he's also uses the same partner that I work with at TTI Success Insight which is a global assessment firm a lot of things in common and that you'll be familiar with so let's go to our discussion now I know you'll enjoy it

[01:12:18] Suzie Price: Ron thank you so much for being here and sharing your wisdom about axiology and the good work you do

[00:05:38] Ron Oltmanns: thank you Susie it's really great to join you and also to be able to share with some of your audience here

[00:05:44] Suzie Price: that's awesome so we're gonna talk about we're gonna kick it off talking about axiology and the Hartman value profile and how you use that how you explain it you know we know it's a tool that measures how we think feel and make decisions but what I'd like you to do for people who are new to this work tell tell a little bit about how you describe axiology to someone brand new doesn't know what it is and then who was Robert Hartman and why does he matter

[00:06:12] Ron Oltmanns: um that's a big order and I'll try to keep it really succinct so I like Steve Byrum and the way he explains axiology is it's really just a look at good judgment what does good judgment look like um and I think that's what formal axiology helps us to do we make all sorts of judgments every day every second and axiology helps us kind of step out and look at those judgments that we make and you know kind of analyze them so that's the that's in a nutshell Robert Hartman is a fascinating character um ever since I heard or Learned about him over 20 years ago um I'll just say briefly haha he was 1910 he was born in Berlin passed away 1973 in Mexico I've actually gone and visited his grave in Quernavaca when we had a Hartman conference down there about 2008 or so and it's so interesting seeing even to this day the legacy he's left how people in Mexico still uh really appreciate Robert Hartman and you know it's like people still take care of like you know just people not related to him not family but they will go and like take care of the grave and you know just keep it up and his legacy is alive and well in a lot of places in the world I I would I only came to this realization recently Susie but I would call Robert Hartman kind of like the grandfather I never had so my both of my grandfathers passed away before I was born and so I never knew a grandfather in real life you know I just know of them through family stories but the more I've read Robert Hartman the more I've Learned about his life it's kind of like he's the age that my grandfather would be if he were alive and of course it's quite old but um I think of him as like yeah a grandfather who has a lot of wisdom and live through a whole different time period in the world and made a great contribution someone that I can go to for wisdom over and over and over as like a mentor um so that's how I think of Robert Hartman a very intrinsically

[01:10:50] Suzie Price: I love it and love it and you know um Steve Byrum for the I'll put a link to the show notes of an interview that we did with him is has an assessment called the Judgment Index and he was one of Robert Hartman's students for everybody who's listening and one of the things that he said that really struck me at the Hartman conference years a couple years ago was that Robert Hartman was the kindest person he'd ever met so no wonder you describe him intrinsically and you know he had such intellectual heft you know and and Steve was was making a joke about you know philosophy professors or professors in colleges aren't known to being nice to students you know and he has a funny way of sharing it you know whatever he said about you know they're not known for being nice but Hartman was and I think you know we talk about often when we use axiology about how intrinsic is greater than extrinsic is systemic now he was somebody that was so rich systemically so intellectually smart and he got so much done but he was also the greatest attribute seems to be his intrinsic and the intrinsic is forever so no wonder people you know his memory lives on is is what seems like a great testament to you know putting people before task before systems matter you know so that's and I love that he's like your grandfather

[00:09:52] Ron Oltmanns: haha very true and I'll just I'll add here that um I first came across him I I'd say it was about 20 you know 20 years ago just over that and I there was a couple that uh were pretty instrumental in helping me understand and learn about Hartman which is David Hartman and Vera Hartman um and I actually did coaching with them for a couple of years and they taught me a lot you know of the things I know about um Hartman's work and they introduced me to the Hartman Institute so I got to know you know several other people at the at the time and I've I've spoken with a number of people who were students besides Steve Byrum that you mentioned I mean Art Ellis who you've had on the podcast maybe some people that your audience wouldn't have heard of or know about people like Marcus Gosman who's in Mexico and was a student of Hartman he actually took Cartman's concepts and applied them to industrial technology and he he runs or owns a packaging company and so he applied axiology to setting up his own company in Mexico City and makes uh bags and packaging and things like that for other companies I mean in high end not we're not talking about the low end stuff we're talking about things like for Neiman Marcus or for you know high end boutique retailers and things like that so and and he talked about how Robert Hartman Bob Hartman that as they called him um and he had this conversation how he sketched out his old business idea on the back of a envelope not a napkin but on the back of an envelope and how you know for Marcus that was like he was this young man and it was really instrumental for him and how he he grew and you know Learned so a lot of the people Leon Pomeroy is another one it's just there's a whole you know range of influences Rim Edwards who you had on the podcast a lot of those people were I Learned about Bob Hartman through their stories and their own experiences and they were so gracious they actually I guess because I was not an academic at the time and I'm still not but they invited me to join the board of the Hartman Institute back in 2006 or so and I was on the board for about six years before we moved to China and it became really difficult for me to do the you know the board act of responsibilities but I really enjoyed kind of knocking heads and and ideas around as as they were going through a difficult time I mean um Jon Hartman who was Robert Hartman's son had passed away recently and the the Institute was going through a time of trying to like you know the passing of the guard and you know what's next so yeah I I've done a lot of research in the archives and some of the unpublished works that Hartman's done and very recently one of our um Institute members in Europe Yule Vogel he had recordings you know and he shared them with me and I've been listening to Bob's voice and it's such a different experience reading his academic stuff and hearing him give lectures live and answer questions and mix it up with people and so I I really love all of those experiences they just enrich and deepen my appreciation for how multifaceted this this man was

[00:13:16] Suzie Price: so Robert S Hartman Institute we'll put a link to to the institute and I look

[00:13:20] Ron Oltmanns: I'm dropping a lot of references here but yes

[00:13:22] Suzie Price: no it's wonderful we'll put a link to um some of the episodes that you mentioned as well you know so you have not only were you on the board though my understanding is you've read all of his tough works and so you know how has reading his works you know I I often say different things that different things that have come in my life there's a Susie before they came into my life and a Susie after they came in my life so you know where's the Ron before axiology and and this this wonderful man who has great works and intellectual heft and lots of love and is like a grandfather where is Ron afterwards and you know how has knowing axiology an axiology for those who are listening is the acumen part of the triometrics assessment that measures your personal skills so there's a very practical use to it uh but anybody who digs into it and learns any level maybe not the level that runs at but even just learns from it tends to begin to make better decisions and understand the world in a different way so talk about how Hartman has impacted you and and how you think and feel

[00:14:33] Ron Oltmanns: the before and after isn't it's a great question for me to really look at because um when I first encountered this work you know let's say it probably around 2004 we'll just pick that as a round year that would mean I'm just going to again um that would mean I was probably in my mid thirties and if I think about my own career I would say that I did come out of an academic sort of background that was my early life and I had already made the switch or the flip um about probably nine years before that from the academic route to the business world it's a whole different story but so I was already in the midst of like not just being content with kind of the life of the intellect and you know what I call the head but you know the practical the hands and you know and that that was part of my own journey what Hartman helped me to to see and do was like you know a lot of the things that are shared in um the business world that are practical that are inspirational when you start digging into them you find that some of them have feet or they've got substance to them and others are like what is that based on there's there's no meat there right there's there's no substance behind it and Hartman helped me see that there's real meat and substance right and that that you can have both the head and the heart and the hands if you will you know if you think about all of those different dimensions that you know um valuing people valuing task in the work itself valuing systems and you know the the importance of all those things there's this comprehensive vision which is just like uh you know it struck me and I I have to admit Susie it's like the first time I picked up that book you know he kind of the textbook that Hartman wrote called The Structure of value

[00:15:38] Suzie Price: yeah that's the one I was like he read that book

[00:16:39] Ron Oltmanns: oh oh

[00:13:07] Suzie Price: that's a tough book and you got all the way through it

[00:16:41] Ron Oltmanns: the first time through it it took me a year and I remember as I read it

[01:06:44] Suzie Price: and I'm really impressed

[00:16:45] Ron Oltmanns: it made me feel so dumb I mean not the book the book didn't do it but I made myself feel dumb reading it cause I realized how big the gaps in my own knowledge were and I was just like I don't understand what he is saying and what this is about and so as I've I and and Vera Mefford mentioned to me how she had made it a practice kind of go back and reread that book periodically almost I mean I think she might even said on a yearly basis and I couldn't manage that but I have gone back and I've reread it four or five times and I have to say each time it it gets more understandable it gets richer and deeper and I start sketching the big picture of what Bob was about and I was just like and it's not just that book it's obviously there's it's the other readings and I really appreciate someone else you've had on this podcast Cliff Hurst Cliff for opening us up to some of the other things that Hartman really cared about axiology was one of them peace and you know the kind of the world politics was another one um how business runs and profit sharing is another and and you know understanding people in internally and what his own Hartman value profile and kind of how you'd apply that to psychology is is yet another so and there's others that haven't even been fully tapped I mean he was really about ethics and morals and you know how do we make good decisions I've recently been looking at Kierkegaard and Hartman really talked about if you want to develop yourself in internally intrinsically go read Kierkegaard and I'm like oh I've read Kierkegaard before he's even harder than Hartman I don't want to go there

[00:18:28] Suzie Price: yeah I remember I had that in college philosophy class I knew it meant something really important but heck if I could figure it out but I liked it I liked being around it especially baby so with structure of value just what what in a nutshell what is it what it's a book by Robert Hartman that gives the framework of his how he created axiology or or what the what axiology means so that's the for you're listening if you're wondering what this is hopefully you're getting intrigued about Hartman and and then you're thinking about if you're looking okay what's the practical on this it's the accumen part of the assessment those graphs the one mind 2 views three dimensions in each view that we teach all the time so structure of value though it is a book about how would you summarize it if it's possible to summarize it putting you on the spot

[00:19:18] Ron Oltmanns: no it's great this is good I if I had had to really boil it down he talks about that there is real science there is real science behind uh what axiology is and our whole view in the modern world of what science is needs to be expanded because we've we've narrowed our view to science is about the physical world the world of matter and he says no no no that's just the science that we've developed that's the one that we've given attention to but we can also develop a whole science of morals and values and what we consider you know we use a lot of pejorative terms for that like soft things or you know this we come talk about soft sciences we talk about the human sciences and Bob Hartman said no no no we can actually measure these things we just haven't applied ourselves to it and the structure of value lays out the whole framework for why there is a very scientific you know way of looking at morals and values and human development and it's going to actually change society when we start giving as much attention to the moral realm as we've given to the material realm you know we've been able to split atoms and understand the intricate secrets of matter in the universe and on the moral field we're like midgets we just haven't really developed you know much in that area and we think it's oh it's all subjective and it's everyone's opinion and and there's nothing of real substance there and Bob Hartman say you're completely wrong and it's because we we allow ourselves and we we accept that as that's given that's just the way things are and so we give ourselves a pass basically and we don't exert ourselves to build up this whole world of value that is so rich and can help us not just enjoy life but also support nurture life you know and I can get really enthusiastic about all the things that we could do I mean like medical science helps us extend life but you know maybe you've seen this Susie people who have a life extended but don't have their inner life and world put in order it's kind of like why do you want to live more years if you haven't really made much of the quality of those years that you've got

[00:21:52] Suzie Price: I love that yes and what's so amazing about just if you if you think about just the axiology part in the Hartman Value profile and those you think about just that that framework applies across through values and ethics and that type of thing but if you access that you can and to your point and to what he's saying in structure values you can measure are you imbalanced are you balanced or imbalanced with your personal life and the and your work life you know in the how you work in the world are you undervaluing yourself you can measure that you know and so and are you undervaluing that are you overvaluing things um you know you can you can measure it and it's it's amazing and once you even just that piece um even if we're not gonna those of us who maybe haven't read structure of value yet or aren't ever going to read structure of value you can just with that insight um know so much about yourself and others and I just always see see that part of it that's most accessible for a broader audience um is it is so hopeful

[00:23:03] Ron Oltmanns: one of the things I appreciate about your work Susie is like you you're really committed to communicating with people and you know making it understandable and I know you use the car analogy a lot and you know how that applies to like our you know tools and behavior science and the thing that I would say also is like you know using the car analogy my dad is a mechanic he knows how the engine works right and can explain all the inner workings of it probably better than I can I don't understand all that stuff I just know will car run right haha and you know axiology helps us understand the inner workings of value science and you know measurements and all that but you know we don't have to understand all of that uh at all to be uh you know beneficiaries and uh you know really uh live in a world that has you know has people who are spending time and thinking deeply about this and working in these areas so that we can actually have things like cars you know that get us around and get us around safely and quickly and you know and and even in style that we actually feel good about ourselves because of the kind of car you drive and it's like all those things are so fascinating same thing about axiology you don't have to understand the science the measurements or any of those and yet you can really benefit by some of the insights that are brought to bear I would give people anyone listening this if you've not experienced like a trimetrix profile or you know the the acumen uh get in touch with Susie because there's something to that that will turn on a light bulb for you about yourself and about the world and so I'm just gonna put my plug in here

[00:24:50] Suzie Price: oh well you too so we both are doing the work so you're just as easy to be contacted about it as I am but you know what I think about it is it's so hopeful you know I never see a bad graph I never see like because it's it's just a snapshot of where we are you know like I'm a big fitness nut and I do all these tests like I'm going to get my Dex a fit and I'm you know I get my v 0 2 max and all those things and those are measurements that are telling me where I'm at and where I'm at you know and it's so then you then you say okay well I'm here so now I can see progress well this is exactly what this is you know getting to the you know where it's so it's in measurement and no matter where anybody lands it's like insight to oh and there's a reason why we're thinking that way um and then then understand we can untangle that it's like getting to the you know the root of the uh engine problem or the challenge that's holding us back you know so you know for me initially when I started my business my role awareness was low my practical thinking was just kind of okay with a really strong negative bias saying you know what that means is the doing part of my life I wasn't quite I wasn't all settled in on that you know so then that's I knew nothing wrong it was like having a v 0 2 max test like okay now I need to do more cardio I need to run some more so I can have a higher you know or in the you know in the assessment I need to focus on that part the doing part for myself and for my work needed help and now it's totally different so it's it's to your point about what you're saying I'm tying it with what you're saying where he's trying to say we can measure this stuff

[00:26:29] Ron Oltmanns: yes yes

[00:26:30] Suzie Price: yeah

[00:26:31] Ron Oltmanns: we can and you don't have to understand the mechanism just like some of the terms you're using like v 0 2 max and some of the metabolic markers that we have you know even oxygen level in the blood you know it's like you know most people you don't need to understand all those things however it's helpful if you can do a reading and you know that hey you're your oxygen levels low you need to do something about that or you're gonna feel sleepy and

[00:26:57] Suzie Price: yeah you could feel better you know yeah

[00:26:59] Ron Oltmanns: you know and your health is gonna be compromised right

[00:27:00] Suzie Price: and you know yeah yeah well how has it impacted your life yeah yeah so your decision making what you teach um yeah for me it's in everything I do because I can't help but see it everywhere I go um what about you what how has it impacted your life personally and professionally knowing all this

[00:27:20] Ron Oltmanns: yeah and um it's really interesting I think back so in 2001 it was a really uh impactful year for me I was you know and I tell this story to some people of you know in other places but I was part of a um a company is a virtual company at the time and I was a coach for them and we were going to have an offsite a meeting up in Jackson Hole Wyoming and um we were gonna do a a segment on um on emotional intelligence and so I was asked to keep a track of my emotions for like two weeks and I did that and that whole meeting actually got called off because uh 9 11 September 11th right happened they shut down the airspace our whole meeting got called off and in a sense my whole kind of ex my my um exploration into emotional intelligence got put on hold I eventually went back to it and I would say part of that was because of the Hartman work made me start looking at you know your thoughts and your feelings your emotions as well as concepts are all important and you've got to look for an integrated you know way to put these back together and I will also say 2001 is like before kids for me BC because we had our first child the next year 2002 my wife was actually in the Bahamas at the time when 9 11 happened we were apart and I was concerned she was even gonna get back into the US cause you know airspace closed and all that and I'll tell a very you know personal story as angle of that too my wife is in the Bahamas and because she was saying I'm not sure I want this marriage we were seven years into marriage and it was like you know seven year itch whatever you want to call it but it was a it was a lot of things were happening and I would say after that you know just a couple of years after that time I encountered Hartman's work and so the picture I would ask you to be you know formulating as you're listening to this is here was a young man of his late 20s you know thought he had a handle on life but also being having to ask some deep questions and yet not ready to deal with where those answers might take him and coming through the other side of that when I encountered Hartman's work as a 30 you know young 30 something I I started to kind of put together things in my life and say oh I need to give a lot more attention to like my future direction not just like setting goals because it's a good idea to have a goal and a plan but like setting a goal based on who I really am you know deep inside my true person if you will my you know and understanding my worth and so going to those sort of things I wasn't giving much attention to my future I didn't know you know all these were just words and concepts to me Susie like things like purpose what's your purpose in life and it's really been a journey for me I I'd say axiology and these you know the whole work has really helped me personally grow a lot by looking at these internal deep tough questions and just put myself through the paces and have other people who will do the same around me and and I've done this with clients too and just help them to examine these things one of my clients from 20 years ago contacted me you know not too long ago and reminded me of some of the coaching I gave him where I can't believe I did this but I actually sent him off to a cemetery and said I want you to ponder what you know what the end of your life is gonna look like and how you wanna be remembered and I was like I did that and I was like oh gosh that really stuck with him and I was like I guess what we're often doing is we're coaching or we're helping people work on stuff that we ourselves need to work on and so I've deepened my own approach to life I've deepened my own work with clients and made room for looking at bigger questions as well as just the immediate question immediate question is do you wanna hire this person or how do we improve our processes how do we communicate better okay we can do all that but if you're not doing that in the context of asking bigger questions it's kind of like what Steven Cubby once told us we could climb the ladder really fast only to find at the top of it we're leaning against the wrong wall if you didn't ask a bigger question like where where where should that ladder be placed you're so busy climbing it and getting to the top that you don't realize oh my goodness arrived at the wrong location the wrong wall

[00:32:19] Suzie Price: I'm here wrong place yeah and it's so interesting that you know on the graph the self view for the Hartman value profile the acumen tells you us about self direction of people aren't familiar with that future what's your hope for the future and I always talk about my nephews you know trying to you know they had a challenging um inner inner life you know because of how they were raised and so I knew that that's what they needed supporting yes they needed to work in the world and do all those things but what they really needed was a higher sense of self they needed a sense of belonging and a hope for the future which is something that Hartman tells us so um and that's the thing when you're I love what you said about bigger questions cause you can when somebody is asking a question about what's next you can go look at the acumen and see how are they feeling about it how clear are they is that the is that the challenge you know that what's their purpose and do what they need to go to a cemetery and think of their end of their life so they can get clear on it you know or whatever it is the bigger questions yeah bigger questions that move the needle more you know if I had had had just added more knowledge to my base back when I first took the Heartman I needed I need some internal work I needed to know where I belonged and I didn't realize it was so low you know and it was I was so negative about it and I but I could feel it you know and there it was in black and white you know so it's and then and then and then once you understand that for yourself it's like you can't help but want to do this um you know it for everyone and with anyone who's interested how is it so helpful

[00:34:05] Ron Oltmanns: I'm I'm wondering I mean you call this wake up eager you know that your podcast and and having a wake up eager workforce and I like that I like what that evokes for me and I've been you know thinking about this question of um people like on a Sunday you know are they thinking about work dreading what they're gonna face Monday morning or do they think of it in terms of oh man I'm so eager to get back back into the you know the mix back into the swing of things and you know ready to tackle the new day the new week um I think that's a big question a big difference between people who don't have that purpose or are just doing their job kind of like um because it's a job because it's what pays the bills because it's a paycheck and you know I've been there before where it's like I was just wanting to get you know paid I was just you know doing it for the money and when I think back man those aren't the fun enjoyable times right to look at work I don't wake up eager for those days there were days when I was like

[00:35:25] Suzie Price: not your wake up earlier life which then

[00:35:27] Ron Oltmanns: right

[00:35:27] Suzie Price: makes it not necessarily a wake up earlier worker

[00:35:32] Ron Oltmanns: so I I I want more people I guess to to have that kind of eagerness that comes from a a genuine and authentic place that's why I do this work is I want more and I I target leaders I want to work with people who are in a place in an organization not necessarily at the top because you and I both know just cause you have the title doesn't mean you've got the hearts of people or you got the ear of people you know just cause you're at the top and you got a megaphone doesn't mean that people aren't doing this whenever you talk and I I put my

[00:23:16] Suzie Price: exactly like yeah yeah yeah

[00:36:10] Ron Oltmanns: hands over my ears cause you know

[00:52:41] Suzie Price: you're talking but I'm not hearing you yeah haha

[00:36:12] Ron Oltmanns: people who are crouching and like saying oh well they just shut up I just can't stand it and they wanna go somewhere else

[00:36:17] Suzie Price: yeah

[00:36:18] Ron Oltmanns: at the first opportunity they're gonna bolt right they're not eager but the leaders of any organization are the ones that have influence the ones that people confide in where they go where they open up and share what they really care about those are the leaders and it's a sad organization if those people who are what I call the real leaders have no authority have no title and no one's listening to them and so my goal is making sure that the people and organizations who are the real leaders get in a place where they have a little more influence a little more authority and where we cultivate those people to places where they can directly impact the organization so that it can accomplish its mission so that they can make money yes so that they can contribute to society so that they can have workers who are waking up eager and you know ready and willing to go and and looking forward to their work looking forward to mixing it up with their colleagues

[01:06:44] Suzie Price: yes yes and the leader leader creates that environment people leaders forget that they forget the minute they walk out the walk in the front door that where they're at is where everybody else is gonna go so they have bit much more influence than they than they know sometimes or remember to create that and influence that give us an example of maybe how using some of the Hartman's work or some of your work has has helped a leader um make better decisions um help themselves be more effective do you have an example of anyone you can think of where they've moved the time

[00:37:58] Ron Oltmanns: yeah I'm thinking about this um this woman that I coached who was in a um senior leadership position and you know one of the things that I did even before we looked at like let's just say the you know trimetrix that the acumen um scores and I do this occasionally with people I just asked her the simple question um which do you tend to focus on more um than others do you tend to anytime an issue comes up do you think about the people dimension of it do you think about the actual you know task or the problem to work on and solve or do you think about kind of the bigger system picture you know what's going on what's behind the scenes and what's working in all this and I asked that question to kind of get a window into how conversant this leader was about their own approach and their axiology really and it was interesting because she told the you know like well I think about the task and the problem to solve obviously first of all and then I think about the people and then maybe I think about the systems and it matched pretty closely what her results on trimetrix showed

[00:39:09] Suzie Price: oh I love that yeah yeah

[00:39:10] Ron Oltmanns: as well how what came out what we discovered in the process was she didn't need to really make a change about the fact that she was a problem solver that was what she was hired to do and what she did really well what she did need to do was stop trying to do so much of the work herself and leverage more of the team and bring them on board and so value the people and and value the strengths that they bring that some of them for example had that systemic strength that she didn't naturally look at some of them actually had a different approach to the problem solving from her own which was something that was needed as well and some of them valued the people side of it that wasn't her first instinct but but they were the people that really needed to have more of a voice in what was going on in the organization so when when she started seeing her own blind spots if you will her own biases and also that her team was a great place to that could compensate for her own blind spots and then she started seeing that okay not just to serve me like they compensate me but if I could step back a little bit and let them shine the team effort is gonna you know be much more impactful than just you know my my impact and it really kind of opened up a whole sort of new career you know direction for her about um she saw that she was kind of at a place where she she was at the entering the second half of her career where it it moves away from so much about personal attainment and success and more to like how do you start investing in other people and how do you pass on your legacy to others and it coincided and so doing the profile was powerful in its own right but it also coincided with a life transition that she was going through and the need to for the organization for a leadership transition to happen where someone else needed to step in who would have a different leadership approach instead of her feeling defensive about it or thinking that she just need to kind of replicate herself she's really started looking at what the job required and oh maybe they need a different kind of leadership style and she was less defensive and more open about you know what that needed to look like and let it emerge you know according to what the situation called for I think that was a big success and I I I would credit using the tool but also passing on what the tool can do for people so that they start making their own conclusions

[00:41:54] Suzie Price: yeah

[00:41:55] Ron Oltmanns: and see the the impact

[00:28:26] Suzie Price: yeah it's just the insight in the tool helps you have those like you said bigger questions deeper conversations much more quickly than if you didn't have it you know cause then they they physically can see it yeah and that sounds that was amazing that was perfect timing sounds like excellent coaching to me haha um let's let's go to um something we're talking about more here on the podcast is about feelings and so we know that um the axiology measures how we think but it also measures how we're feeling so I mentioned you know with my role awareness way back when I didn't see my roles in my life very clearly I didn't know where I belong that was a score on there and then I had a negative orientation toward it so I I wasn't hopeful about it so talk a little bit about um feeling and and how how axiology this tool is a way to explain emotional responses and our strengths in decision making and our blind spots and um one other thought I would give is I know that a lot of people use EQ and I think that's a good tool but I've never really ventured in it um because I just feel like the Hartman if you if you get all the richness out of Hartman you'll end up with more emotional intelligence but and you know if you learn to manage your blind spot so I just wanted to get your opinion on that I'm not dinging emotional intelligence and I do have people that use the assessment but I always lean on this um so I want to get your thoughts on all of that

[00:43:33] Ron Oltmanns: okay um one of the things that I'll point out which is a you know it it's it may seem kind of obvious on the surface but I think we often overlook it is within the trimetrix tool that we use there is behavior science which is based on disc well let's remember that Marston who you know created the disc model his first book was The Emotions of Normal People he was first looking at emotions and you know including what you know psychologists would call affect right how you show up you know your emotional temperature well we have those sort of uh emotions that you can read in people like whether someone is more predisposed to anger and of course anger can take a lot of different shadings you know someone is you know could show annoyance a lot well that's one type of anger that they're just kind of always kind of impatient a little bit annoyed they don't just blow up and rage but it's like anger is kind of their signature okay well that's interesting you know to notice other people are very positive and bright and cheery and you know optimistic and so with with that our emotions are part of our makeup and you know the Hartman value profile or the accumen doesn't doesn't give us a really you know nuanced view of all the range of emotions it does show sort of that balance though between whether we are much more rational or whether we are more emotional you can see that whether you know that comes into play but getting into some of the nuance some of the the what scientists call the granularity um it doesn't do so much of that and so I encourage people to really you know look into emotions and I talked about emotional intelligence earlier partly because it's so critical and we overlook it so one of the people that's rarely mentioned in emotional intelligence um he was actually a neuroscientist Antonio Damasio he's written quite a few books about this um Descartes error was one of the first ones that I read but he talks about feeling and judgment he actually has shown through neuroscience that we are crippled and literally cannot make decisions or good judgments without the use of emotion so people who think that well we just need to be rational we need to kind of like uh you know push emotion off to the side or push it down keep emotion out of it try to be as objective as possible um well I'm not saying we should have runaway emotions but you know were if that's your response or that's kind of your way of looking at the world you are missing out on connecting with people on a whole you know big area that is hugely important if you don't if you don't pay attention to emotions how are you gonna sell customers how are you gonna market well how are you gonna motivate and engage employees how are you going to pick up on the fact that you know things have changed there's a subtle change in the marketplace and it's like you know people have moved from being positive about your company they're starting to question it do you are even tuning into any of that stuff emotionally do you have situational awareness and so I'm a pilot by the way I I you know I private pilot I fly planes one of the things that I've I've seen in that you know sort of domain is that pilots have to be very rational but you know you can have everything all buttoned down and in control and in just a flip just a second you can suddenly come unglued right and totally be in a panic and so people that I know who've like flying a plane you find yourself suddenly like in the clouds and you weren't planning to be there you can get totally disoriented and people go into like a graveyard spiral where they they're totally certain that they're flying straight and level but if they look at their instruments they know that they're in a they're in a spiral and they're headed down to the ground and they've totally convinced themselves mentally no no no I'm safe I'm fine right until the last minute when it's too late and so yeah

[01:12:18] Suzie Price: oh that's a great analogy

[00:48:00] Ron Oltmanns: that's an example that I would give about we cannot simply live on the rational level or banish emotions or think that objectivity is somehow the better place to be you know and and that emotions need to be pushed out to the margins I think we need a healthy integration of the of of them and if if you start realizing that emotions are a are a hugely powerful energy force that you can manage in yourself and in people and also it's information that you take in from the market it's information you take in from employees are they feeling eager are they waking up eager or they waking up in dread right are they positive and optimistic about the company and you're you know where you're headed or they actually starting to kind of get the feeling in the stomach that man things aren't so good then if you start tuning into these things it's like another power that you have it's it's it's another tool that you can actually work with and so I can't imagine a a leader willfully wanting to fly blind meaning without emotion without tuning into emotions and have true emotional intelligence as as part of their you know in the tool belt

[00:49:22] Suzie Price: I love it I love how you expressed every bit of that and the analogies are perfect perfect and I didn't know you were a pilot that's very cool

[00:49:30] Ron Oltmanns: yeah I I've got a lot of stories up my sleeve I've got a lot of interest too by the way

[01:06:44] Suzie Price: yes you do good example especially right now with you know all the different accidents that have happened it's a you know

[00:49:41] Ron Oltmanns: oh man it's sad it really is tragic what

[00:52:41] Suzie Price: little bit more on everybody's mind yeah

[00:49:44] Ron Oltmanns: what's going on in the US at least you know in the aviation industry recently

[00:49:47] Suzie Price: yeah

[00:49:48] Ron Oltmanns: but you know a lot of them we take a look at you know there are systemic issues like air traffic control system we're saturated we also have too little staffing there that's an issue we got problems there we've got pilots who like have grown up not even doing enough what we call hand flying where they have manual skills and they are too dependent on like instruments in in another you know state or or technology in the cockpit you know it's like you know like Boeing had two big accidents with the 7 3 7 Max because the pilots weren't well trained in how to uh override the system and that don't trust the technology you know it's like you actually have to get you have to get on top of it and take charge in the cockpit you know be on top of the technology don't don't be a passenger in your own cockpit

[00:21:47] Suzie Price: yes oh that's really good yes

[00:50:43] Ron Oltmanns: well and the same thing applies to leaders that I've talked to which is like a lot of leaders think that just because they occupy the C suite that they are the leader I say it's like being in the cockpit but you can actually be an employee in your mentality in your own sea suit if you're not really being a leader on top of things and challenging your thinking and bringing people in to challenge your thinking I think that's one of the mistakes I'm seeing increasingly is leaders who are intolerant of dissent of people who disagree with them and who actually might have some good points they need to listen to

[01:10:50] Suzie Price: yeah yeah and I think you know I always my mind immediately goes to okay somebody who doesn't want that maybe they either have a really high sense of self on that on the accumen and and they don't want any feedback cause I can be you know I'm not coachable or they feel defensive and they feel like their their power is gonna get lost you know so you can can see your own you know um own fallacies that could get in the way or your own way of looking at things that would keep you from inviting people in if you're the CEO and you're not hearing feedback to challenge your your thoughts you know so that's powerful that's powerful um let's see where I wanna go next I liked how you talked about emotion being another power tool and we've been talking about that more and again since we're leaning on the HPV right now you can see how you're feeling in each one of the dimensions which can lead to a lot more self awareness as to where you're locked down or where you can get more energy um when you think about axiology going forward you think about the acumen um what do you think the future holds you've seen it for a while now especially you were involved early on there were more when Leon Pomeroy and those folks were were around where's it going

[00:52:57] Ron Oltmanns: let me pause this Susie I actually want to come back to that question I think it's a good one but I had another thought and I it may be helpful so let's just pause for a second maybe this can be edited in um just now when you asked the question about um how emotion can be um used you know within our our tools a little bit better and I pointed out disc is one one of the things that I think is also overlooked is that emotion kind of cuts across all of the sciences or tools that we use within trimetrix so I'll give you another example besides disc or behavior science emotion is a huge part I think also of your motivators I mean if you think about it a lot of motivation is you know emotional if you are speaking the language of what people are really motivated by they get more eager they get more energized they lean in they're more interested and the quickest way to get people disengaged is to key in on the things that are not their motivators or try to motivate them using things that they are totally unpassionate about or disengaged about you know one example would be someone who loves knowledge loves you know the theoretical loves learning right and yet you keep harping on keep a clean space and environment you know you really focus on the aesthetic and the feelings and things around them and it's like that's their lowest motivator and they're just like please you know just just give me something to learn give me give me something that's new some variety and something you know like that and so I think emotions play a part there another place is like within our um the DNA the competencies and soft skills it's like I often have people ask me like okay how do I get better like I've had this question you know come up where people say okay see see like look at my three lowest ones you know how can I work on those and one of the first questions you can anticipate this I'm sure one of the first questions I ask them is why do you even want to work on those are those important to your job and so I push back because there's a presumption that the things I'm worst at or lowest at are things I need to bring up and work on and I want to challenge that in the first case of what is it even important but let's let's just for the sake of argument assume that someone is pretty low very low on the on personal accountability and it's really important for the job they really need to work on that well again how are you going to use emotion in order to tap into things that will help that person not just get started down the path of building personal accountability but stay on the path and so part of that comes back to you know motivation you got to work on that but I would say emotion is part of it too when it comes to like well personal accountability you know what fear is actually a good motivator and we need to see if if you don't build up your personal accountability it's gonna cost you on the job it's actually gonna cost the company too and there's probably gonna be mistakes and there's you know we're gonna drop things I gave this analogy you know last week in training with a group of leaders we were talking about priorities and you know prioritization and time management is kind of a perennial issue but I pointed out you know there are some things that if you don't take care of it it has a sell by date on it right it's gonna expire and I said and so the analogy I say is some things you don't take care of them it's like a rubber ball right you drop it it bounces back you can pick it back up certain things that are job related or whatever there are some things that if you drop it or you miss the opportunity it's like a glass ball it just shatters and you can't put it back together right it just it's impossible so when you talk about prioritization I'd like to use analogies that speak to people that have kind of an emotional component and you know it was interesting because in the training someone commented later that day about you know of all the things that were shared that thing you shared about the balls that stuck with me you know and they were saying when you mentioned the glass ball it made me think about how I'm neglecting my family and how my kids are growing up right in front of my eyes and I'm spending way you know so much time at work and it's like that's like a glass ball if I don't do something different and start spending a little more time prioritizing I'm never gonna get these years back I'm never gonna have a redo a chance to you know go back and do it right and I was like that's such the perfect application of what I was trying to share and it's an example where emotion comes in about what what's gonna get us to kind of flip the switch and prioritize development our own development our own need to build up skills that we don't have frankly and so I'm always looking for what's the angle Susie about emotion you know where it comes into play whether it's acumen whether it's disc you know motivators or soft skills and so that was one of the the things I wanted to help people just remember is even if you don't look at EQ per se as EQ we are emotional beings and it cuts across all fields

[00:52:41] Suzie Price: it's in everything yes

[00:58:35] Ron Oltmanns: it is

[00:23:16] Suzie Price: it's in everything and it's with us all the time and it's an important tool and you tapped into that with that group and I also felt it when you said the glass ball and I thought about what personal accountability is which is you taking ownership of things and not blaming other other people or other circumstances without even meaning to very good people do that you know and it took really touched that gentleman in regard to hey I I got to take accountability for this that's a glass ball yeah you you tapped into that perfectly into the emotion yeah your analogies are great

[00:59:10] Ron Oltmanns: okay thank you for letting me capture that before we go into the future of axiology

[00:59:14] Suzie Price: I love I love I love I love well in the interest of time a little bit about the future of archaeology

[00:59:18] Ron Oltmanns: okay

[00:21:47] Suzie Price: and then we're going to talk a little bit about you so talk a little bit about axiology where you think it's going

[00:59:25] Ron Oltmanns: okay yeah

[00:21:47] Suzie Price: and the Hartman value profile and you know maybe you know we we you know I know some people who are hesitant to use the acumen and use that part of the tool um but I think all science is just as you pointed out at all matter the disc the motivators the the DNA the acumen and EQ but they all can give us good information um but do you think that we're headed to a place where people are more interested in knowing about who they are do you think that more tools like this will have impact um you think people could start to understand the axiology more I mean it's just a kind of a broad just kind of your thoughts since you've seen it from the beginning er your beginning in 20 years ago

[01:00:11] Ron Oltmanns: as I look um at the generations coming up and I say generations because we've got several in the workplace coming along you know behind my generation and it's like um they have different sets of concerns and yet I think that there's a real curiosity a a real uh interest in understanding themselves and what what I what I don't see is that science gives them um good entry points so and by that I mean that science is fragmented and so people who for example go into psychology or you know some of the psychometric uh test personality test and things out there and there's some good ones on the market there are good ones there's a lot of them that are dreadful they're just not they don't have good science or it's it's very very partial science right that's you know a particular angle um I see that our younger generations are kind of asking the question and saying the you know the so what question of like you know how do I understand myself yes that's helpful but also how do I understand the environment that I'm in and whether this is a friendly environment an environment where I can grow or whether it's a toxic environment or just a neutral environment where it's like yeah it's okay I'm not gonna wake up eager I'm not gonna wake up dreading it but I'm just gonna be meh you know kind of like so so and I I see that the younger generations are um are looking for answers and they're not coming up with good answers um I'm not saying that they don't have good answers I'm just saying that we haven't been that you know diligent in showing the way that there are some really powerful helpful insights and they aren't necessarily things that were just discovered yesterday right so there are things that we have like forgotten and I'm talking about the human race that we need to recover I think Hartman's axiology is one of them I mean he passed away in 1973 and it's like and it's not that there haven't been people doing this you know some of this work it just hasn't got much of a world stage you can't point to a single Ted talk out there that really kind of centers Hartman's work and has amplified it into you know a larger audience and I think that's a failure on our part much like by the way it's like we went to the moon right several times six or seven times but the last time we've been to the moon is 1972 we haven't been back since and you know people say you know we're even trying to recover some of the technology in order to get people back on the moon so we we kind of got distracted took our eye off the prize and look somewhere else if you look at space exploration right or you know moon exploration similarly with axiology I think we took our eye off the ball and I think it's time to rediscover hey this is a really powerful tool it's really powerful science and by the way it's not complete it's not all built out it's kind of like a whole new world awaiting discovery and we need a lot of people giving a lot more energy to this um just think if we had stopped with Galileo or or Newton right you know about gravity and some of these and just think if we stopped there and we said okay that's enough you know we're we're we're good

[00:52:41] Suzie Price: we don't need anything else yes yeah

[01:04:09] Ron Oltmanns: yeah we we don't need all the insights of chemistry and physics and you know atomics you know and and nuclear and all these sort of things it's like wow we would miss out on so much and I think that's where we are with axiology is we have you know we've had Newton we've had Galileo which is you know Robert Hartman we need a whole army of other people exploring all these other fields and building it out and showing how in the moral you know world in the social sciences in you know international diplomacy you know in in so many areas politics where we need to bring you know insights of what is good and how do we make the world better

[00:28:26] Suzie Price: yeah yeah I love it I love it yes and it's interesting when you talk about gravity you know it gravity is everywhere it's around us all the time and the interesting thing is Hartman's dimensions are in everything all the time whether we know it or not nobody went to school and we don't really need to go to ecology school in regard to for it to be in our life and in everything we talk about A Guzman who created this business based on the principles of axiology he knew how to do that literally but it's happening and and you know if you know the principles and you can have a fuller richer decision in the making you know decision making and when I think about young people I think that um they are curious about being all that they can be and from that framework I mean that's what Hartman was doing that was his whole mission you know seeing evil I wanna measure good and hey if you pay attention to these you can be all that you can be you know you can be you can bring all of you to it the emotions and and make better decisions and you know the the difference that people feel when they fill out their axiology and they grow their people awareness if they choose to do that or they grow their self you the strength and the foundation then they're more sturdy you know we're better teachers or they're better uh teachers of their colleagues and their friends and you know um if we can apply this so it's just been um excellent having you talk about it today and then the way you talk about it um and your analogies and such a really good your depth is obvious

[01:06:24] Ron Oltmanns: thank you I I get I get carried away I get so excited thinking about the possibilities and thinking about how we can you know bring this to more people it's like we've we've not even scratched the surface it seems

[01:06:40] Suzie Price: yeah yeah well Hartman passed away he said it'll be 100 years before uh this really takes off and it's been 50 yeah

[01:06:47] Ron Oltmanns: I I think he's right

[00:21:47] Suzie Price: he's probably about right so we're right in the middle of it haha

[01:06:53] Ron Oltmanns: haha

[00:13:07] Suzie Price: so let's go a little bit more granular as we kind of start to wrap up and and learn more about you um it's our wake up eager strength segment and we use it to get to know our guests but to also help teach a little bit about the tool and you know according to the assessment some of your communication style strengths are you're very organized by nature that's what people will see how you like to drive around and urgent communicator by the way um you your pace is pretty quick but and you have a quiet demeanor according to the assessment your drivers according to the assessment it are um theoretical passionate utilitarian passionate so that's a not love for knowledge we've seen evidence of that today and then a lot and love for getting return on investment a futuristic thinker and then also a spokesperson and being you know the leader that's that that's some of the motivators and then um you're very self reliant as well according to the assessment

[01:08:00] Ron Oltmanns: I feel seen you're right

[00:13:07] Suzie Price: haha so that's just what the assessment says but let's uh look at the um you're gonna go to the strength segment in the Talent Insights which is the page that combines our communication skills and our motivators and maybe on the strings pick your favorite one on there that you read today and tell us what you picked and maybe why you picked it for today what it means to you

[01:08:29] Ron Oltmanns: you know this is an interesting the one that jumped out at me is No. 5 out of these eight items and it says my desire to learn more allows processes to become more effective and the I guess the reason I would point to that is it's so interesting I mean if you just think in terms of um utilitarian or usefulness is a is a big theme for me and you know my desire to learn which is knowledge those two are obvious the thing that's less obvious and this statement isn't really tied to another part of the assessment which is the axiology the Hartman side but my strongest dimension the one that I'm clearest about that is really stands out above the rest is tasks or the extrinsic you know world the the external um yeah practical thinking it really my practical thinking comes up and so let me share the statement again my desire to learn more allows processes to become more effective so it's my practical thinking you know as well as utilitarian theoretical as well as the behavioral strengths that I have that I think really make that ring true and resonate with me

[01:06:44] Suzie Price: love it taking it and owning it like the badass that you are right I always say everybody's a champion and yeah it's your part of your champion place what about ideal environment is it on that page what's one that stands out that is meaningful to you right now as you look at it

[01:10:14] Ron Oltmanns: um again I'm gonna kind of go to um something that is integrative that ties a lot of different strands together the last one on ideal environment on my report at least says um I will do best in a place where I have economic competitive and challenging incentives so one dimensional sort of things are not very interesting to me I like multi dimensional and so economic competitive and challenging is like a three dimensional incentive it's like yeah that's that that really speaks to me so I'm just speaking you know something else about this if it's just an environment where there's learning you know which is the theoretical it's it's it's a heady trip it's interesting but it loses its fizz pretty quick for me that's one of the reasons why I wasn't happy in academia when I was you know young early on in my career I was in the you know academic space and then it's like I had a mentor pull me aside and he says Ron I I I sense that you're not quite fulfilled here and he introduced me to the world of coaching and he said and he didn't even tell me I should look at it he just said if you're interested you should you know you you can go check this out and it really the fact that he wasn't being directive and that it was a space where I could do these different have these different incentives that's really you know that's kind of been a theme for me throughout my life

[00:13:07] Suzie Price: that's awesome yeah I can see it can see it getting results you know and and the fact that you're working with executives your profile is you know especially like the CD I'm married to a CD my husband's an executive big big executive in a company um you know so that thoughtful and thinking and then urgent and getting it done lining it up you know the utilitarian is passionate and you then you're always thinking ahead that's good stuff that's good stuff let's go to the next question which is what advice would you give your 25 year old self you've talked about your younger self a little bit today what advice would you give

[01:12:29] Ron Oltmanns: wow my 25 year old self um haha I I laugh because I'm think as I it it suddenly hits me I got married when I was 25 right that's that's the age and so uh I think the advice I would give my 25 year old self is um be very aware be cautious of going into situations thinking that you know it all you'll be a you'll get a lot further if you approach situations with curiosity and if you're willing to ask the question you think you're right but what if things were different than what you think they are what if things you know are a whole different way if you look below the surface I think that's the kind of advice I give my 25 year old self cause I think back of um I think I had a lot more certainty at that age than I needed or was wanted I think I would have done better to have asked more questions and ask more of myself kind of like you know challenge myself more

[01:10:50] Suzie Price: yeah I love that and I've seen you do that actually so you show up very curious and you know and having that style of the thinker and the doer you know and the communication style you can that can be a blind spot that you have totally totally vanquished it is not a blind spot for you

[01:14:03] Ron Oltmanns: you you are so affirming and I really appreciate that Susie

[01:10:50] Suzie Price: I don't think so

[01:14:06] Ron Oltmanns: I I can understand people wanting to be what

[00:20:32] Suzie Price: it's true I've seen you

[01:14:10] Ron Oltmanns: show up eager around you because you're just a very positive person

[00:20:32] Suzie Price: haha but I've seen it I've just saw your recording of the thing you did and you were very open to others input

[01:14:21] Ron Oltmanns: thank you thank you

[00:07:21] Suzie Price: I mean a living example of that you know and that's that's you listen to your advice

[01:14:26] Ron Oltmanns: lessons Learned right because I think as yeah as a 25 year old I was probably I was curious about learning things intellectually but not so curious about challenging myself about okay uh are you certain about that or kind of like you know I I was a lot more kind of black and white and dogmatic about the way things should be in my life and in other people around me and I was all about ideas you know and learning new things but I think I could have been a lot more curious about myself and other people and tuned into that level a lot sooner

[01:15:02] Suzie Price: yeah well it goes to the you know you I think I would guess I'm just throwing it out there but this thing that has really helped me too in regard to axiology where it says people are greater than tasks are rather greater than ideas when you're smart like I think you've probably always been you have a lot of really good ideas and you knew they were good ideas but if you remember that hierarchy you know so then it's like wait a minute let me see what other people think I know what I know

[01:15:28] Ron Oltmanns: ideas are a dime a dozen you know

[01:15:31] Suzie Price: yeah

[01:15:31] Ron Oltmanns: and and in a ways ideas are kind of like the rubber balls I was talking about they bounce back you know an idea whose time hasn't come it's alright because we'll get around to it eventually as the human race but you know what people are unique and you know what we have one shot at valuing people we have one shot at appreciating people for and I've had these experiences in life where I look back and say oh that was like a one shot opportunity and I missed it right to connect with that person or to ask that question or you know someone passed away before I was able to really build a stronger relationship with them or you know they came across my life and then went off and I never saw them again so it's like yeah learning to value people more I think that's that's one of the life wisdom you know lessons that I've had to learn

[01:06:44] Suzie Price: yeah yeah and it happened that hierarchy even if you're people oriented cause I've always been but understanding the hierarchy cause I could get caught up in being right sometimes you know like oh really get off of that that's what matters here and that that when Steve Byrum said that Hartman was the kindest human he'd ever met and Steve Byrum is so accomplished he's written like 25 books he speaks spoke millions of people uh he's brilliant and that's what he remembers that's the legacy that's the legacy so anyway it's fantastic you've listened to your 25 year old self advice so we're closing up um you're passionate about leading a meaningful life and doing meaningful work and I so appreciate that and appreciate you being on the podcast any last piece of advice or wisdom or anything you want to share to for listeners who also want to have this meaningful wake up eager life you know their mental health and well being what would you share

[01:17:25] Ron Oltmanns: there is real wisdom in our bodies and um I think the wisdom that I would say that um we miss that is very accessible to us is just learning to inhabit our own bodies and and um make friends with yourself with your body tune into what your body saying so when we say like I had this gut feeling I had this gut instinct well you know what it's not always right it could have been last night's spaghetti and it's just disagreeing with you right but but more often than not that's part of your intuition that's you tuning into something intrinsic that you can't quite put words to and I'd say interrogate those things and um there is so much wisdom on the somatic level which is on the body level and this is something we didn't really talk about in the rest of the of our interview the podcast here but um I got introduced to a martial art called Aikido many many years ago when I was in the in Asia and I I kid you not Susie it took me three months of experience in the dojo before I realized my partners kept telling me that I was tense and and you know uptight and I said what do you mean I'm relaxed before I started realizing that yeah I was tense and uptight and I couldn't even tell what a death grip I had on life much less on my partners that I was grabbing and being just really rough and I didn't know how intense I was and then I had to kind of relax and I didn't even know how to relax I didn't even know I that I was that tense and so there's wisdom in the body we have to learn to tune into it and I think part of this wake up eager you know life and work that you are championing is pay attention to that you know the pit of your stomach when you've got you know things are good you know it and when things aren't good you know it and don't ignore the signs

[01:19:27] Suzie Price: yes wonderful

[01:19:29] Ron Oltmanns: yeah

[01:19:29] Suzie Price: don't ignore it wonderful thank you so much for being here today can't wait to share this with everybody um and I just appreciate your time

[01:19:39] Ron Oltmanns: what a great gift thank you for having me on and I I really wish you well and and your listeners too I mean keep tuning in because Susie's got some good stuff here and I've listened to other episodes and if if you haven't if you're new to wake up eager go into her archives and in the library and just find the other episodes there's there's gold in them

[00:21:47] Suzie Price: it's so fun doing it so I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to do something I love to do I always wanted to be a journalist haha alright thank you

[01:12:19] Suzie Price: thank you so you now know more about Hartman you know more about axiology you know more about authentic leadership Ron reminded us also that our emotions are a big part of who we are we had some good discussions around that and that we are emotional beings and that knowledge or insight cuts across all fields and so before we close out today I'm going to share some insights or favorite things from the episode with you but I do want to refer to our well being 2.0 segment with Douglas White this is the well being 2.0 aligning with your excellence and Douglas is our recurring guest for 2025 he's the CEO of Seoul Integrated Athletics he's a former pitching coach and director of pitching for the Los Angeles Angels 17 year career in Major League Baseball including with the Houston Astros a four time minor league champion and part of two World Series winning teams he's a great guy he's got a great heart he's very clear he's got great energy and he his company so integrated Athletics they are building a platform that combines mental and emotional health with athletic performance and so he's a great guy to talk about we are our own athletes at work when we're working in corporation so that you we've got to bring our best self to have our best performance and so I think that he's a great match in the way he shares and his depth and insight on emotions and he helps us remind us helps remind us that how we feel matters and because how we feel is guidance and information is not something to ignore but something that we can use to our benefit and emotions you know as Ron was talking about you know they're a part of who we are we're emotional beings all of us are we gotta figure out how to work with these emotions and um and in that way we can build our wake up eager life and our wake up eager work force so let's go to Doug now

[01:14:17] Douglas White: this is Douglas White and you are listening to emotional well being 2.0 aligning with your excellence thank you again for being here we love that you're tuning in we're on segment five and what we're talking about today in segment 5 is what do we want you to trust about this lifetime basically what we're talking about here is there's some things in your life when we're discussing it on the segment we just want you to trust it just go all in trust it and begin to feel how to know this information and so here's the list we want you to trust about this lifetime No. 1 we want to trust that our emotions are our guidance system their information their communication with ourselves we want to trust that we wanna trust that this is a vibrational world we live in now that's a physics deal and a quantum physics deal so you don't have to go very far to trust that one that you can read in a book right but we want to know this is a vibrational world meaning the taste the touch the feel the sounds everything about our world is vibrational it has a wavelength it has a frequency we'll talk about why that's so important later on you create your own reality and if you can't go as far as you create your own reality you play a huge part in creating your own reality if that makes you feel any better about that statement but we want to trust that and again we'll talk about that more as we go and the last one I want you to trust we want you to trust is you're more than just this physical body you're part of something bigger you are something bigger meaning your soul your source your God there is more to you than just this meat suit and there's more to this earth that we live on this universe that we're inside of there's more to it that we don't know about and we just wanna know there's something bigger we just wanna trust that so we'll go back through the list again your emotions are your guidance their information their communication between you and you we want to trust that trust that this is a vibrational world we live in and we'll we'll um explore that more trust that you do create your own reality or you play a huge part in creating your own reality we'll talk more about that and that you're more than just this physical body there is a soul to you source to you a God to you as well and that's something huge to know because right then and there just knowing that you're worth your deservingness your your just your your entire beingness your reasons for being who you are there's so much to that statement that we'll get into more but I want you to write these down and repeat them to yourselves every day they matter you'll understand more why as we continue to speak about this love you guys so much thanks for tuning in I hope you're having an amazing week

[01:17:41] Suzie Price: so Doug reminded you to restate what he talked about and write and repeat the areas he shared to think about and make true for yourself and the great statement that I want you to remember is that your worthiness is undeniable so you have your assignment and you can we'll be we'll have him back at the next in the next episode and if you want to listen to all segments by Douglas you can go to Priceless professional.com forward slash well being and you will see all segments and contact information for him he is taking some coaching assignments with people who aren't in the baseball field so he can definitely have some conversation with you if you are interested you can contact him and you find it on our website at Priceless Professional com forward slash well being so now I want to wrap up with some of my favorite takeaways with Ron and then we'll close it out very quickly I liked when he said that Robert S Hartman was is like a grandfather to him the grandfather he never knew someone he can always go to for wisdom and that is so true if you wanna learn more about Hartman and you wanna find out about the Hartman Institute they have these Hartman happy hours that are free and they're once a month and they usually have interesting speakers and get recordings of it and you can also sign up for their newsletter and just kind of get involved a little bit if you're interested or just want to figure out more about who Robert Hartman is I would say check out the institute we've got a link to that in the show notes and also check out our episodes and I've got a link to that in the show notes where I've interviewed other people about Hartman some of Hartman students and more about axiology and it's a special page that we created for the podcast it's Trimetrics University Podcast so it's everything related to assessments that are kind of pulled out of the main directory so it's easy for you to find them so go to our show notes at today at pricelessprofessional com forward slash eager leader and you'll see a link to Hartman Institute and also those podcasts I want to remind all of us what one of the things we talked about was how Hartman showed that we can measure social science we can measure ethics we can measure what it takes to make good decisions we can see how we are making decisions we can actually get a snapshot of how we're thinking and feeling and we can use that information to create a high quality life sometimes we don't think we can measure that or we think that the disc our communication style is measuring that and it doesn't it disc is good but it doesn't measure what we're talking about here and Harvey was so much more than just the assessment he he talks about business and ethics and profit and you know nominated for a Nobel Prize so there's a lot more to Hartman than just the assessment mostly what we we work on with it is around the assessment but there's so much more to him years ago when I was involved in the institute I created a history of his life and when you go to the institute page you'll be able to see how much he accomplished in the short time he was here quite amazing and um that has been inspiring and instructive for me and to get to know the people who knew him and to see how high quality and good thinking and it they're all very intellectual people but they don't come across as San Diego intellectual people they're good people that put people first and so I don't know I've just Learned so much about Hartman and about life and a high quality life even though I'm not as steeped in some of the books and the theory as others the example is there and so anyway check that out priceless professional dot com forward slash eager leader if you feel inspired and want to learn more about that we also have a deeper dive Trimetrics training where we teach more about axiology so if that is ever an in of an interest to you one of the takeaways that I'm gonna use in my training is what Ron shared when he asked asked the leader he was giving the example of the of the leader who had made some realizations based on how she scored in the axiology acumen part of the assessment and how she was thinking and he said that he asked her and does this often is which do you focus on more or first people tasks or systems and those are dimensions that are measured in how we think and feel and make decisions so I'm going to use that in the future uh in my deeper dive training that that question to get people to ask that and then go look at their assessment results and see if they match up or not so if you're interested in any of that let me know but um thanks Ron for that great uh little exercise I can now add to my deeper dive training Ron is an expert on analogies I like that don't be a passenger in your cockpit you know so when you're the pilot and you're kind of being a passenger cause you don't know everything that's going on in the cockpit and you haven't taken complete ownership of the role you're being a passenger in your life or in your work so I liked when he shared about his dad as a mechanic and how he knew to the engine and how axiology helps us do the same I liked when he was the really good example of when thinking about priorities think about what you can drop that's gonna bounce back up and think about what if you drop it it could break glass ball so that is that's very clarifying and creates a great mental image so he is really a good storyteller and good with analogies and I really appreciate his passion for helping leaders he wants to and does possibly impact others and helps them create their level of impact in organizations in genuine and authentic ways so you have to be one to teach one right so you have to be kind of genuine and authentic in order to teach that to others and so I feel like he demonstrates that and he has every time I've ever seen any of our events or training sessions that we go to that we're we're there he always demonstrates genuine and authentic ways and presentations that he does so just just overall he's he is what he's teaching in my opinion um and overall I appreciate the depth of study he has taken in Hartman's work in axiology in leadership and in emotions and I appreciate his thoughtful and authentic sharing so I hope you benefited from this episode today again the show notes are at priceless professional dot com forward slash eager leader if you enjoyed the episode today please leave us a review let me know you left the review and I will send you a complimentary gift of something I have I'll find out what what you might want and I'll share it with you an assessment or maybe a debrief tool or something leave us a review if this was helpful thank you for tuning in or share it with someone comment with us on LinkedIn and go forth and create a wake up your life wake up Eager Days and we'll see you on the next episode take care

[01:24:37] outro: This episode of the wake up Eager Workforce podcast was brought to you by Priceless Professional Development. Thank you for tuning in. If you enjoyed today's show, head over to Priceless professional.com to gain access to more professional development resources.